Who's the better pitcher Bundy or Eduardo Rodriguez?

[Cumberbundy]

6 hours ago, Frobby said:

No we're not.    

If not for Duq we'd be well over. ❤️ 

[Cumberbundy]

6 hours ago, foxfield said:

You are capable of making eloquent forceful arguments. This is pointedly self serving as if trying to manipulate factoids and half thoughts and cobble them to support an opinion you know is wrong.

Dan Duquette is not the single best GM in the long treasured history of baseball.  But his tenure here and overall, is a hell of a lot closer to brilliant than embarrassing.  Sir.

I don't want him to be a bad GM, but he is. Look at the rotation he's sending Buck out with. He's given away a lot and brought back very little. He gets credit for wins someone else built and doesn't pay for tearing apart a very nice future to get the few wins he turned our assets into. 

What has he added to this roster after all of this time? Brilliant draft picks continue to be wasted on his chasing WC spots with an average roster. If he had any foresight at all we'd be brilliantly positioned to contend for a decade.

I should amend, he's not just bad, he's atrocious. It's absolutely laughable watching him trade anything for Hellickson after releasing Jackson. Edwin is fairing much better than Hellickson did in that same division. It's embarrassing watching us lose to Bridwell while we give away assets looking for a Bridwell. It's a failure when a guy gives first round picks for the production we got from Gallardo & Ubaldo. It's a disaster to be searching for pitching while Hader, Ed Rod, Davies, Brault, Bridwell, Gonzo, & Edwin are all guys offering more than Tillman. It's a failure. He has sacrificed a lot of cheap pitching & two elite picks for what? We are worse now and worse next year and worse the following 5 years because he wasted cost controlled pitching. We'd have a much better shot at retaining our young stars if we had a rotation on rookie contracts rather than needing to pay guys 15 million to offer less production. It's humiliating. 

My point with Ed Rod is simply that, at best, Dan accomplished nothing. People work hard to find these assets, giving one to Boston for a part of a season of a set up man is a disaster. You win or you lose. The thought does not count. Boston is better and we are worse because of that move...that's a fact. The brewers are better and we are worse because of that trade, that's a fact. We have 3 spots to fill in our rotation without anything ready in the system because Dan has failed to look ahead. He has spent money unwisely and assets unwisely. If he had made zero trades we'd be better today and we'd be better for the next 5 years. 

Bundy/Gausman/Rodriguez/Davies/Bridwell 

Thats a nice cheap rotation. It should be our rotation. Go 6 guys? Add Hader. 7? Go Brault. 8? Maybe one of our first round picks. 9) maybe the other first round pick? A ten man rotation?....

I didn't mention the cy young award winner that a competent GM calls the most lopsided deal he's ever had the pleasure of making. Now I have. What a disaster. He's intervened with his obtuse thoughts on pitching/cutters ...and again that hurt us, it's unfortunate that we hired him.

Dan deserves a ring from the Cubs, a healthy check from our rivals & to be escorted out of Baltimore before he can do any more damage. 

Fortunately we got incredibly lucky that no one else wanted Cruz. He didn't target him, but that luck worked out very well. Letting him go may have worked out accidentally with Mountcastle but the numbers say it was unwise not to keep him. Then he attempts to block Mancini with Trumbo - what an awful move to make if you believe in Mancini at all. He didn't, obviously, & now we have to stick a terrible defensive OF on the field because Dan miscalculated his own asset for the hundredth time. We had a cheap DH. What does Dan do? Gets us an expensive DH to go with him. Genius.

But, the Castro deal was a good one and I mentioned that the day it was made. I wish the facts were more flattering. He's a terrible GM. 

Look at the rotation, it's ridiculous. 

[Cumberbundy]

6 hours ago, weams said:

So, you gonna sit tight and let Detroit have Miller?  That's the craziness. 

Absolutely. We didn't need Miller to get to the playoffs. Ed Rod is not the cost of having a slightly better chance at getting 3 outs a game, for 5 games, against them. That's insane to me. 

[PaulFolk]

50 minutes ago, Cumberbundy said:

I don't want him to be a bad GM, but he is. Look at the rotation he's sending Buck out with. He's given away a lot and brought back very little. He gets credit for wins someone else built and doesn't pay for tearing apart a very nice future to get the few wins he turned our assets into. 

What has he added to this roster after all of this time? Brilliant draft picks continue to be wasted on his chasing WC spots with an average roster. If he had any foresight at all we'd be brilliantly positioned to contend for a decade.

I should amend, he's not just bad, he's atrocious.

I get that your post is being intentionally hyperbolic, but to say he's been "atrocious" is off base. I think most people agree that Duquette hasn't set up the Orioles well for the future. And those chickens are going to come home to roost, if they haven't already. That certainly damages his overall legacy.

But what Duquette has succeeded at is winning in the present. The Orioles haven't had a losing season in his five full years at the helm, and they've made the playoffs three times (and all this after having 14 straight losing seasons before he arrived). It's also a gross overstatement to say that "someone else built" the rosters that Duquette won with. Yes, a lot of the big pieces were already in place when he arrived, but he was able to find a lot of key pieces of his own. Chen, MiGo, McLouth, Hammel, Pearce, Cruz, Miller, Brach, Kim/Trumbo (the 2016 versions). Gausman was drafted under his watch. He re-signed Adam Jones. Why no mention of any of those moves?

Frankly, I think when Duquette was hired, ownership instructed him to place a lot more emphasis on the present than on the future (Angelos isn't getting any younger, after all). So in that respect, Duquette has done his job. That doesn't mean he's been a great GM, or that he should stick around longer, but your assessment of him is ridiculously one-sided.

[Cumberbundy]

7 hours ago, PaulFolk said:

Capable, sure, but I think there's a strong chance the games would've played out differently. At least some of them.

Game 1: The Orioles were clinging to a 3-2 lead after five innings. Miller came in and pitched two scoreless innings, the O's got a run in the bottom of the 7th, then the Tigers got one off O'Day in the 8th to make it a one-run game before the O's blew it open with 8 runs in the 8th (all of them scoring with relievers on the mound). If Miller were on the Tigers, the Orioles would've needed someone else to hold the fort for two innings, while Miller might've pitched the 8th and kept the Orioles from scoring any insurance runs. I'll say the Orioles still would've had a good chance of winning, but it would've been a nail-biter.

Game 2: Miller didn't pitch in this game for the Orioles, but he would've made all the difference if he'd been pitching for the Tigers. With a 6-3 lead in the 8th, the Tigers could've had Miller shut the door in the 8th/9th instead of the hapless crew of Chamberlain and Soria who ultimately blew the game. I fully believe the Orioles wouldn't have won this game if the Tigers had Miller in their bullpen.

Game 3: Again, Miller had a big impact. The O's had a 2-0 lead in the 7th when he came in with one out and a runner aboard. Miller retired all five batters he faced to hand a 2-0 lead to Britton in the 9th. Without Miller, maybe the Orioles would've gotten the same performance out of O'Day or someone else (or stretched out Britton for an extra inning), but we don't know.

So, with all of those hypotheticals, we'd probably have been up 2-1 instead of sweeping? Not the WS, but round 1? You just had him throwing 2 innings in every game? We win without him and if we didn't, what's lost? How did KC do without him? ?

[Cumberbundy]

The thing I don't get about these discussions is why anyone takes someone's views of these millionaires personally. I love the O's win or lose. I'll watch every game no matter the record. If baseball is being played in Baltimore, life is guaranteed to be beautiful for the summer. I'm a homer, everyone thinks I'm too optimistic about everything, but I look at Duq and see a guy who wasted very impressive draft picks, made by someone else, to try to sneak out runs with significantly flawed rosters. It's really indefensible for this to be what our rotation looks like. He's paid to get these things right & he simply has not. Davies has been dominant recently, absolutely brilliant. Hader has looked great. There's no excuse for Jake failing here then becoming a cy young award winner...that's on the O's and the O's are Duqs baby. There is absolutely no justifying the forfeiture of first round draft picks, for Ubaldo or Gallardo, Particularly when we have limited access to elite young talent due to our lack of participation in the international market. 

Then Ed Rod - what's the price for marginally better odds? We don't just give away Ed Rod but Miller takes a spot from someone on the strongest part of our team. You trade EdRod & the RP Miller is pitching in place of. Miller was never going to be worth that for 20-25 appearances. We could use all of these guys & picks right now and have zero to show for it. We can't even point to a run we made that Dan made possible by overpaying. We are going to have to overpay for a staff that is lesser than the one we drafted. That's a failure. That's 3 rotation spots Dan failed on and zero he secured. He's giving away picks and prospects trying to get the guys he let go.

11 man rotation - Miguel Gonzalez. We are rumored to be seeking a trade for a guy he let go of. People can mock Edwin Jackson but he's been very good for Washington, better than Hellickson. Not bad for the 12th man in a rotation we gave away.

If we need a 13th starter we could always use Miranda. 

We passed on the chance to take a high upside HS arm, sound like someone we might draft? Hall, Harvey & Kopech could very easily be our top 3 pitching prospects, if not for Dans failure. We profile as a team fairly likely to have drafted Kopech. How exciting would that be. Why isn't it reality? Ubaldo? Good lord is that awful. It's not some massive reach to think he'd be our guy, he was exactly what Hall is. Oy vey. Dan Dan Dan. Bundy, Gausman, Ed Rod, Kopech, Harvey would look nice heading into 2019. Giving those picks away is brutal. 

13 starters, nearly no cost. That's a lot of cheap pitching for a team looking for pitching. ? That's a lot of cheap pitching for a team in need of saving money for Manny & Schoop. Now we are left to decide how much to overpay 3 journeymen. History says Dan isn't great at finding pitching in free agency. Another weaknesses unnecessarily exposed. 

That said, it's just baseball. Millionaires running around making millions for billionaires...it's entertainment. 

Go O's.

 

[foxfield]

8 hours ago, Cumberbundy said:

I don't want him to be a bad GM, but he is. Look at the rotation he's sending Buck out with. He's given away a lot and brought back very little. He gets credit for wins someone else built and doesn't pay for tearing apart a very nice future to get the few wins he turned our assets into. 

What has he added to this roster after all of this time? Brilliant draft picks continue to be wasted on his chasing WC spots with an average roster. If he had any foresight at all we'd be brilliantly positioned to contend for a decade.

I should amend, he's not just bad, he's atrocious. It's absolutely laughable watching him trade anything for Hellickson after releasing Jackson. Edwin is fairing much better than Hellickson did in that same division. It's embarrassing watching us lose to Bridwell while we give away assets looking for a Bridwell. It's a failure when a guy gives first round picks for the production we got from Gallardo & Ubaldo. It's a disaster to be searching for pitching while Hader, Ed Rod, Davies, Brault, Bridwell, Gonzo, & Edwin are all guys offering more than Tillman. It's a failure. He has sacrificed a lot of cheap pitching & two elite picks for what? We are worse now and worse next year and worse the following 5 years because he wasted cost controlled pitching. We'd have a much better shot at retaining our young stars if we had a rotation on rookie contracts rather than needing to pay guys 15 million to offer less production. It's humiliating. 

My point with Ed Rod is simply that, at best, Dan accomplished nothing. People work hard to find these assets, giving one to Boston for a part of a season of a set up man is a disaster. You win or you lose. The thought does not count. Boston is better and we are worse because of that move...that's a fact. The brewers are better and we are worse because of that trade, that's a fact. We have 3 spots to fill in our rotation without anything ready in the system because Dan has failed to look ahead. He has spent money unwisely and assets unwisely. If he had made zero trades we'd be better today and we'd be better for the next 5 years. 

Bundy/Gausman/Rodriguez/Davies/Bridwell 

Thats a nice cheap rotation. It should be our rotation. Go 6 guys? Add Hader. 7? Go Brault. 8? Maybe one of our first round picks. 9) maybe the other first round pick? A ten man rotation?....

I didn't mention the cy young award winner that a competent GM calls the most lopsided deal he's ever had the pleasure of making. Now I have. What a disaster. He's intervened with his obtuse thoughts on pitching/cutters ...and again that hurt us, it's unfortunate that we hired him.

Dan deserves a ring from the Cubs, a healthy check from our rivals & to be escorted out of Baltimore before he can do any more damage. 

Fortunately we got incredibly lucky that no one else wanted Cruz. He didn't target him, but that luck worked out very well. Letting him go may have worked out accidentally with Mountcastle but the numbers say it was unwise not to keep him. Then he attempts to block Mancini with Trumbo - what an awful move to make if you believe in Mancini at all. He didn't, obviously, & now we have to stick a terrible defensive OF on the field because Dan miscalculated his own asset for the hundredth time. We had a cheap DH. What does Dan do? Gets us an expensive DH to go with him. Genius.

But, the Castro deal was a good one and I mentioned that the day it was made. I wish the facts were more flattering. He's a terrible GM. 

Look at the rotation, it's ridiculous. 

No. But ok. You win. DD is the worst GM ever. You should be thrilled when Brady Anderson is in charge.