2/23 Terps vs. Canes/ Gary Williams' status debate

[BaltimoreTerp]

Um, what?

Gist is a senior. He's one of the most athletic players in the country. I thought at the beginning of the year he could be an All-American. Now, yes, it is partially his fault, but he's been coached awfully too. I mean, how could we not be all over telling him to put on a lot more weight his whole time he's been here so he could get a rebound and stop being a tweener? How can we not tell him that for every time he takes a three, he runs 3 miles? How can we not get him to go straight up and draw contact instead of fading away on every shot? His potential has not been reached in the slightest, and a lot of that falls on Gary.

I didn't realize 1) a coach can force a player to eat and 2) none of that involves the player.

And it isn't as though you can just dump him if he doesn't do those things; he is still a very good player. Can you imagine the outcry (you know, from people like YOU) if he was dropped because he couldn't gain weight (which a lot of people have trouble with for many reasons anyway) or he transferred from being run to death?

Oh, and he's the only four-year senior that matters.

Plenty of teams are playing with young guards. When you consider that our soph PG and SG may be the most highly-touted guys on our team, it makes it even more clear how we should be able to get looks for the SG and teach the PG how to stop turning the ball over and get the ball to the bigs. I understand there's a learning curve and they'll be better next year. However, we should still be able to win with them, while the good bigs are here.

Like I said, you don't think they are still developing and can get better?

Seriously, how is anything going to be better next season? The recruiting classes don't match up year-wise. We're losing our two best bigs, and none of the young bigs now have shown us anything. The guards coming on are supposed to be good but Gary never plays freshman anyway. This whole team will rest on GV's shoulders again and that's not nearly enough to get it done.

Gary never plays freshmen...except Joe Smith, Keith Booth, Steve Blake, all of the players in the two highly-touted classes, Hayes, Vasquez...

He plays freshmen that show they are ready to play.

We also gain Gilchrist next year, and if you don't think any of the present bigs will improve then really you have never paid attention to Maryland basketball before Travis Garrison.

I think we've had quite enough patience with his awful recruiting classes and poor performance. We're supposed to be turning a corner now but instead we're getting worse with each year. No doubt, with Gist and Osby gone, I think that with Gary doing the same exact thing with the same exact system, we'll be even worse next year, just like I predicted we'd be worse last year when everyone was ranting and raving about how Hayes and GV being a year older would make us so much better while everyone underestimated greatly the effects of losing two of your most talented guys in DJ and Ibekwe.

Shouldn't we wait until the end of the season before making grandiose statements like "we're getting worse with each year"?

Every year basically, we'll be losing two of the best we've got and adding guys not ready to contribute yet. Even when Kim gets here, GV and Hayes will be seniors and Kim won't be ready to play or at least Gary won't let him in all likelihood and then the next year they'll be gone and Kim will have no help around him.

This whole thing has been planned out awfully and we need someone with a fresh outlook to come in and clean up the mess.

I'll agree that there was poor planning IN HINDSIGHT (seriously, did you have a problem at the time bringing in those classes?), but we definitely don't need a new coach to work it out.

[inmn]

Those two classes weren't highly-touted? Sounds like you are rewriting my words for YOUR own benefit

The bolded part is the whole point. Recruting and talent evaluation ARE different. That is why we have won with Joe Smith and Juan Dixon and lost with Travis Garrison and Mike Jones.

Say what?? I note they were good classes as per the attachment. Joe Smith and Juan Dixon were superior talents that played on much, much better teams-again READ the attachment. Dixon was not a heralded recuit, although Smith was not widely known he was a big time recuit-top 20 by Oetinger.

Regardless he is not getting the recruits he had during his best years, that's a fact. He's been involved (add Jai Lucas to the list) they are just going elsewhere. EG. this years class would have looked markedly different had he gotten the players he wanted say-Koufus, Green, and Freeman...not the complmentary players he has. They aren't going to develop beyond bench players that's why he has 4 top 50 talents coming in this year (which runs counter to your thesis). Maybe GW is smarter than you and realizes they won't be long term solutions. Recruiting is getting better, much better but you are in denial if you think this is a talented team-GW knows it isn't and is recruiting right over the top of them.

If you are any more than a casual fan it is difficult to watch Md struggle as a mediocre team while the the last two NCAA players of the year (Durrant and Beasley) come from within 10 miles of College Park. Not to mention the resurrection of Georgetown who is now involved nationally with top 10 recruits......

And If you belive that crock about GW recruiting 4 year, character guys read a little about Maze. He may be very talented (and a good fit for Md) but he is not exactly a clean cut guy with any sort of academic aspirations. He brings a lot of baggage.

[BaltimoreTerp]

I'd say with the way college basketball has become, pretty much a one and done or two at most type situation with most of the real talented kids bolting for the league........ the 'we are just so young' excuse might not fly. Our team is lead by two seniors and a two sophomores who played a ton last year........ That's not terribly young in basketball terms.

Ten of fourteen are freshmen and sophomores, including essentially the entire bench.

And the one-and-dones are all special players. That's why there are only a handful each year.

[JohnD]

Bryan, I never said you were 14. I also agree that Vasquez as the PG just isn't working. It must stop.

I never thought Gist was anywhere close to an AA. He played well towards the end last year, but outside of that stretch and a few games this year, he's been rather pedestrian. Lately he's been a ghost. He's got no jump shot as he constantly reminds us.

And if you're going to criticize the coaches for his lack of development from last year, what do you say about Osby's improvement this year? He's the inside player on the team having an All-ACC season. Other big men who went from raw and unpolished into NBA players, ie; products of good coaching, include Ekezie (who was chubby and had hands like Osby did last year his first two seasons), and Baxter who played with as much heart as anyone I've ever seen. I'm thinking the coaches know a thing or two about improving big men, even as Gary's assistants over the years have gone on to better jobs.

[bryanman8]

Bryan, I never said you were 14. I also agree that Vasquez as the PG just isn't working. It must stop.

I meant that I'm older than "14," the poster, as you referred to him. Actually, we're the same age, but I've got a few months on him.

[JohnD]

Oh, and John Calipari?!?!?! He's one of the sleaziest cheaters that hasn't been caught yet. Right up there with Huggy bear (who was done in by DUIs at Cincy) among other less than quality people.

Seriously, years from now when Gary does retire, I'm sure it won't take long before are wishing he was still around. The number of critics who want him gone is astounding, short-sighted, and reeks of petulance and entitlement.

[ccbird]

Say what?? I note they were good classes as per the attachment. Joe Smith and Juan Dixon were superior talents that played on much, much better teams-again READ the attachment. Dixon was not a heralded recuit, although Smith was not widely known he was a big time recuit-top 20 by Oetinger.

Regardless he is not getting the recruits he had during his best years, that's a fact. He's been involved (add Jai Lucas to the list) they are just going elsewhere. EG. this years class would have looked markedly different had he gotten the players he wanted say-Koufus, Green, and Freeman...not the complmentary players he has. They aren't going to develop beyond bench players that's why he has 4 top 50 talents coming in this year (which runs counter to your thesis). Maybe GW is smarter than you and realizes they won't be long term solutions. Recruiting is getting better, much better but you are in denial if you think this is a talented team-GW knows it isn't and is recruiting right over the top of them.

If you are any more than a casual fan it is difficult to watch Md struggle as a mediocre team while the the last two NCAA players of the year (Durrant and Beasley) come from within 10 miles of College Park. Not to mention the resurrection of Georgetown who is now involved nationally with top 10 recruits......

And If you belive that crock about GW recruiting 4 year, character guys read a little about Maze. He may be very talented (and a good fit for Md) but he is not exactly a clean cut guy with any sort of academic aspirations. He brings a lot of baggage.

Good post. Pretty much spot on. For some reason people like to underrate the talent we recruited in the mid to late 90's- through the NC and overrate our 2002 and 2003 classes.

Simpkins, Rhodes, Hipp, Booth and Smith were all top 50 talent. I believe Profit, Morris and Stokes were top 50 players. Baxter was top 100, as was Tahj and Blake. Francis was an elite JUCO, while Jamar Smith and Randle was relatively high too. The only unheralded guys who came in and really became good to great players were Dixon and Nicholas. Most of the talent coming in was very good. There is definitely a misconception that Gary molded and went after lower ranked 4 year talent. Back in the mid to late 90's it was still fairly common for players to stay 4 years unless you were cream of the crop top 4 or 5 talent. Now days, if there is a chance you could be a 1st round pick a lot of kids go and a lot more test the draft waters anyway. There is a great chance that now days any or all of SImpkins, Rhodes, Booth or Hipp would have been entering their names in the draft before 4 years.

In contrast, people like to overhype the 2002 and '03 classes. The truth of the matter is both were top 5 classes but based more on quantity than quality. In '02 the only concensus player in the top 50 was Gilchrist. Garrison was right around 50 but was also considered overrated at the time because he played at Dematha. McCray was generally in the 40- 70 range. NCM was 80 - 100. '03 had the only elite recruit from both classes with Jones. He was concensus top 25. Ibekwe was top 50. Strawberry was in the 75 -100 range. Bowers and Fofana were both considered projects and both were generally outside of the top 100.

Besides Jones, Williams didn't get any elite talent in the '02 or '03 classes. The ratings of the guys he got were pretty much in line with what he got in from the mid to late 90's on. The only difference was he loaded up with 5 guys in each class. Again, it was the amount of players along with Final Four and National Championship recognizition that made the classes top 5 more than the thought that we got premium talent.

It is also very true that most of the current freshman weren't Gary's first choices. In fact, Dupree, who committed his junior year is probably the only guy who would be here if Gary had his way. Let's be frank, most of these guys are 2nd or 3rd options who we picked up relatively late in the game after our 1st chices went elsewhere. Some of these guys are in fact being recruited over. It is why there will be a spot for Bowman and Maze if they qualify and it's why we are still recruiting guys in the '09 class even though we technically don't have any available scholarships.

[Pedro Cerrano]

People love to defend Gary Williams.

People also thought in 2003 that by 2007 the Orioles would be a contender.

Fin.

[Tony-OH]

And If you belive that crock about GW recruiting 4 year, character guys read a little about Maze. He may be very talented (and a good fit for Md) but he is not exactly a clean cut guy with any sort of academic aspirations. He brings a lot of baggage.

This is my biggest complaint against William's recruiting. People say he's going to those four-year character guys instead of the one or two and done guys, but if I recall Maryland had an embarrassing 0% of basketball players graduate. That includes players that knew they were never going to play in the NBA.

Not only is Maryland becoming a NIT or one and done in the tourney team, we've become the developmental team for Israeli or Turkey professional basketball. Wheeeeeeeee!

I also don't understand how people think the program would just self destruct of Williams left or was fired. Maryland with it's facilities and basketball rich area would be a great job and I'm sure they could attract a top coaching candidate.

I appreciate everything Williams has done, but the results are starting to indicate he's not getting it done.

[Tony-OH]

Bryan, I never said you were 14. I also agree that Vasquez as the PG just isn't working. It must stop.

I never thought Gist was anywhere close to an AA. He played well towards the end last year, but outside of that stretch and a few games this year, he's been rather pedestrian. Lately he's been a ghost. He's got no jump shot as he constantly reminds us.

And if you're going to criticize the coaches for his lack of development from last year, what do you say about Osby's improvement this year? He's the inside player on the team having an All-ACC season. Other big men who went from raw and unpolished into NBA players, ie; products of good coaching, include Ekezie (who was chubby and had hands like Osby did last year his first two seasons), and Baxter who played with as much heart as anyone I've ever seen. I'm thinking the coaches know a thing or two about improving big men, even as Gary's assistants over the years have gone on to better jobs.

These are good points John, and personally, I don't think Williams' faults are in his development, it's in his recruiting and talent evaluations. Osby has become a good little player and I can see him playing as a 11-12th man in the NBA due to his tenacity, rebounding and shot blocking ability. Here's the problem though, if Williams is so good at developing big body guys like Osby and Baxter, why not recruit more of them? I'm so sick and tired of seeing these little skinny 6-9 guys and there is no shortage of big men around the NCAAs that can at least take up space and could develop.

[Tony-OH]

Oh, and John Calipari?!?!?! He's one of the sleaziest cheaters that hasn't been caught yet. Right up there with Huggy bear (who was done in by DUIs at Cincy) among other less than quality people.

Seriously, years from now when Gary does retire, I'm sure it won't take long before are wishing he was still around. The number of critics who want him gone is astounding, short-sighted, and reeks of petulance and entitlement.

So, you are happy with being bubble team each year and with the program not being a top 25 team each year? You think it's too much to ask for? Apparently you believe we are no where near North Carolina and Duke because they expect and demand that their teams are in the top 25 each year.

Maryland has become a second class program within the ACC and as posters have shown, we've fallen behind Georgetown in the Washington, Virgina, Maryland area and that's not good.

[Tony-OH]

Re Grad Rates

Gary's own response about the Grad Rates is the best:

Coach Williams Responds to Graduation Rates

"On October 4, information was released on federal graduation rates for student-athletes who entered college from 1997 – 2000. Maryland's student athletes from this four-year cohort reached the final four in 2001 and won the NCAA National Championship in 2002. They also were a big part of the reason we were able to build the Comcast Center and generate a tremendous amount of additional funds through seat licensing. Immediately after the 2002 season, applications to the University went up by close to 25 percent.

The recent articles claim that we had a "zero" graduation rate. However, three players from that group have graduated. Financially, all of the players who played during that time have been successful playing basketball in the NBA or internationally, and have earned a far greater income then the ‘average' college graduate.

Last year, four of our six seniors graduated. This year, all three of our seniors are on schedule to graduate in four years.

Keith Booth, my assistant coach from Dunbar High School in Baltimore, played professionally with the Chicago Bulls. While with the Bulls he helped them win an NBA Championship. Keith returned to Maryland and received his degree. However, because he did not get his degree within the NCAA's six-year window, Maryland was not credited, even though he completed his degree.

Our staff works very hard with the academic support staff to provide our student athletes the best opportunity to be successful. Below is a list of players—including Keith Booth—who have all graduated with their degrees. However, because these student athletes did not graduate within the six year requirement, they are not factored into Maryland's graduation rate.

Keith Booth

Evers Burns

Matthew Downing

Eric Kjome

Cedric Lewis

Kevin McClinton

Laron Profit

Duane Simpkins

Terrel Stokes

Tahj Holden

That shows me everything I need to know Chris, thanks. Williams is actually touting that mediocre college basketball players eventually finished their degrees more than two years after leaving his program. Like he says though, he's developing them to be professional basketball players, but unfortunately, he develops for the Israeli and Turkish professional basketball leagues.

That's an embarrassing response to an embarrassing mark on his record. He doesn't have his program as a perennial tourney team, most fans can't remember the last time this team was ranked in the top 10 or hell, the top 25, and he can't even graduate his players in six years.

Tell you the truth, he reminds me a lot of Brian Billick, who went a long way with one championship that came from a magical run, not a dynasty of continues top level success.

I'm sorry that I expect Maryland to be a top basketball program, apparently some of you don't feel that way and are satisfied with being a bubble team program year in and year out.

[Tony-OH]

Wow, some of you guys are amazing. I hope you get to see reality one day. I was here throughout the Driesell era. I cried like a baby as a 16 year old the day Len Bias died. I have loved Terps BB ever since I can remember. MD Terps basketball is in a much better situation today than it has ever been in during its long history. It is there because of Gary Williams. If you look at this link, you should understand why Gary Williams deserves our support. I understand that it is easy to become spoiled by some success and that some of you guys who are 25 and below may not get the history of the team, but you should try. No previous coach has ever had nearly the success of Gary Williams. You could remove the NC year entirely and he would still be by far the most successful coach in school history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maryland_Terrapins_men%27s_basketball

Here's the rub though, I respect the hell out of Gary Williams for what he's done for the program, and yes, I do expect us to be more than a bubble team each year and he's a big reason for me having those expectations.

But what remains clear is the program is not keeping up. We're starting to lose more frequently to teams like Miami, Florida State, and Virginia Tech, football schools that should not be beating Maryland unless it's one of those freak games.

Gary Williams is a big reason we have that fantastic arena and facilities, and that alone should be a big reasons to get top players to come into the program. But for some reason it's not happening. I can't remember the last time I was excited by a guy Williams recruited right off the bat.

He's got excuses by the handful for his failures within his program, and some of you have bitten hook line a sinker. I just believe you can respect a guy for what he's done, but also realize he may not be the guy to sustain that success.

[Tony-OH]

2006-7 - Ended the year ranked in the Top 20

2005-6 - NIT, won 19 games, McCray fails out senior season.. could have easily gone to the dance.

2004-5 - NIT, won 19 games, beat Duke twice, Gilchrest goes insane.. could have easily gone to the dance.

2003-4 - Ended the year ranked in the Top 25

2002-3 - Ended the year ranked in the Top 10

2001-2 - National Title

We are starting 3 soph's, and have 6 freshman on the bench... we have signed a talented class for this coming year, and are off to a good start for 2009..

If the core of this team sticks around, we will be very good next year, and National Contender good in '09-'10.

We lost in the first round last year to a nothing school after two years of NIT. We are probably going back to the NIT this year. Three years after winning a national championship, the time where most programs get a boost from that exposure, Maryland has turned into a NIT team three out of four years with the other year being a first round loss to a mid-level college team.

Looks to me that Gary got very lazy after his national championship and that is showing up in the results.

[bryanman8]

I truly believe there is a lot more opportunity to fall than to rise if Williams is replaced today. If this current group of youngsters isn't able to do better over the next 3-4 years, I could feel differently. But, it is much too early to be citing trends and calling for replacements IMO.

Wow. That is insane, imo. Dear God, how lax can you be about getting this program back on the right track? After 3/4 years likely playing NIT basketball after a NC, you're going to give him 3-4 MORE years to turn it around before you "could" feel differently?!

Please enlighten me, first: where do you see the opportunity to rise under Williams right now? It's the same thing as last year. Because Gary doesn't recruit nearly well enough and get nearly enough depth, we will lose two of our best players just like last year and get even worse. Again, this is not something I'm saying was planned out poorly in hindsight--it's been planned out poorly forever. When you all were going cuckoo about how great we'd be this season with the leadership of the two guards with a year under their belt and all, I continued to point out that we lost arguably our two best players from last year, DJ and Ibekwe. Predictably, we've declined without them. Next year, as mentioned, we lose Gist and Osby. We will be even worse without them, as much as you all love to hate Gist and trash on his incredible athletic skills that Gary just has not been able to get the best of at all. Then, after wasting GV's junior season again because there's no real good talent at the bigs (give me a break on Gilchrist--he's not even playing until December and his first year, no way he's nearly as effective as Osby is for us now), assuming GV, Milbourne, and Hayes all stay on for their senior seasons, they still have almost no help because our best recruit will be Kim, a freshman. You can point to how Steve Blake contributed as a freshman and all but right now Gary just will not trust them at all unless they're all he's got. He has refused all season to let Burney, Dupree, etc. get any minutes whatsoever. What makes you think that'll change now? So then, Kim, as a sophomore and on when he's ready to really contribute, loses probably the best 3 players on the team before him and has no one around him to help him.

The main problem is that Gary stinks at recruiting. The secondary problem is that he doesn't have any foresight whatsoever and does an absolutely awful job of planning out these classes and loading up with players who can all help in the same class.

Things are fallllllllinngg pretty badly right now. All you conspiracy theorists, give me a break, Calipari's team was #1 in the nation trying to go undefeated and had more than enough scrutiny especially with the questionable character of a player or two on that team and not a thing has came out about any recruiting violations. BS on that all changing if he came to the ACC.

Tony, jw, who would you like to see as a head coaching possibility? I've always been an Anthony Grant fan myself. There are plenty of coaches far more in-tune with the recruiting and offensive attacks run today than Gary. It really wouldn't be too hard to find a coach who actually does something as a recruiter.