Rob Neyer: Pete Rose and John Dowd

[TouchemAll]

I may not be in the majority on this' date=' but I believe a person's entry into the hall of fame should be based on playing ability and not on character.[/quote']

Agree there's plenty of sleaze in the HOF IMHO Pete earned it on the field JMHO I say put him back in and let the voters decide.

[Oriole1940]

I agree with some of each post on this topic. What I have wrestled with for years concerning Rose is the FACT that regardless how many negatives can honestly be listed about this man, I cannot come to the position of saying a ball player who holds the record for MOST hits, ever, should be kept out of the Hall. IMO the hard driven personality of his, that helped him accomplish that record, also led to his downfall. I have seen similar instances in many walks of life. They would not have accomplished what they did without their personality, and likewise, they would likely not have fallen so far, without it, either. When all is said and done, the saying rings true. "There is some good in the worst of us, and there is some bad in the best of us."

[Can_of_corn]

I agree with some of each post on this topic. What I have wrestled with for years concerning Rose is the FACT that regardless how many negatives can honestly be listed about this man, I cannot come to the position of saying a ball player who holds the record for MOST hits, ever, should be kept out of the Hall. IMO the hard driven personality of his, that helped him accomplish that record, also led to his downfall. I have seen similar instances in many walks of life. They would not have accomplished what they did without their personality, and likewise, they would likely not have fallen so far, without it, either. When all is said and done, the saying rings true. "There is some good in the worst of us, and there is some bad in the best of us."

So do you have Bonds in your hall?

All-time HR and Walk leader.

[Rene88]

He bet on baseball.

He bet on his own team.

He sometimes didn't bet on his own team.

He willingly accepted his lifetime ban.

His behavior since his ban has, at best, been a mixed bag.

I see no reason to allow a return.

I think the main reason he wants back in is so he can get into the HoF, so he can charge more for his autograph.

We agree~! However, what burns me up MORE is that nobody is talking about Joe Jackson, who shouldn't have been banned in the first place! He didn't even know what he was signing! He was the best hitter in the series! His family's legacy has been ruined! Yet people still are talking about this dingleberry! Amazing!

[InsideCoroner]

Sounds to me like Rose admitted to using PEDs.

But for the same reasons, would you also bounce Willie Mays, Mike Schmidt and half the post-war players who admitted or were said to use greenies from the Hall as well?

[Can_of_corn]

But for the same reasons, would you also bounce Willie Mays, Mike Schmidt and half the post-war players who admitted or were said to use greenies from the Hall as well?

I wouldn't bounce any of them.

Use of PEDs is not a factor for me.

Especially since we have DECADES of players that we have no idea what and if they used.

I get irked when folks shout about steroids and give a wink and a grin to greenie use.

[InsideCoroner]

I wouldn't bounce any of them.

Use of PEDs is not a factor for me.

Especially since we have DECADES of players that we have no idea what and if they used.

I get irked when folks shout about steroids and give a wink and a grin to greenie use.

I agree with that. Personally I don't care if Rose ever makes the HOF. I would be fine if he didn't. But that's more to do with his off-the-field conduct, both during and after his managerial career.

There is definitely hypocrisy involved, and some of those guys (Bonds, Clemens, et al) did themselves few favors via charm. Yet nobody asked questions when Kirby Puckett went from 0 to 4 to 31 homers, because it was the era of the "live ball" (and because people liked Puckett).

Maybe Cy Young chewed coca leaves to help him pitch 300 innings. Just because testing is better now doesn't mean the players of today are any less meritous.

[weams]

I wouldn't bounce any of them.

Use of PEDs is not a factor for me.

Especially since we have DECADES of players that we have no idea what and if they used.

I get irked when folks shout about steroids and give a wink and a grin to greenie use.

Mothers little helpers never bothered me. But maybe that is the generation that I came from.

[olehippi]

I wouldn't bounce any of them.

Use of PEDs is not a factor for me.

Especially since we have DECADES of players that we have no idea what and if they used.

I get irked when folks shout about steroids and give a wink and a grin to greenie use.

With amphetamines and steroids, you are basically talking two totally different eras. Greenies are old school and have been around

baseball and other sports since World War II, or earlier. In fact, the US military used to give greenies to soldiers to keep them awake and alert.

Former commissioner, Bud Selig, has said he first heard about greenies in the old Milwaukee Braves clubhouses of the late 1950s.

Amphetamines were classified by the federal government as a controlled substance in 1970, and it has been a federal crime since

to use them without a prescription. Baseball didn't ban their use until 1991, long after Rose was done as a player. So maybe Rose

did use them prior to then but if he had a prescription, it was legal. Because baseball didn't start testing until 2003, we'll never know.

On a side note, in Jim Bouton's book, "Ball Four," he describes the rampant greenie use by the 1969 Baltimore Orioles.

And there is the tragic story of Steve Bechler, the Orioles 3rd round pick in the 1998 draft. His death in 2003 was linked to the use

of ephedra, an herbal stimulant, that is banned in the US.

[Can_of_corn]

With amphetamines and steroids, you are basically talking two totally different eras. Greenies are old school and have been around

baseball and other sports since World War II, or earlier. In fact, the US military used to give greenies to soldiers to keep them awake and alert.

Former commissioner, Bud Selig, has said he first heard about greenies in the old Milwaukee Braves clubhouses of the late 1950s.

Amphetamines were classified by the federal government as a controlled substance in 1970, and it has been a federal crime since

to use them without a prescription. Baseball didn't ban their use until 1991, long after Rose was done as a player. So maybe Rose

did use them prior to then but if he had a prescription, it was legal. Because baseball didn't start testing until 2003, we'll never know.

On a side note, in Jim Bouton's book, "Ball Four," he describes the rampant greenie use by the 1969 Baltimore Orioles.

And there is the tragic story of Steve Bechler, the Orioles 3rd round pick in the 1998 draft. His death in 2003 was linked to the use

of ephedra, an herbal stimulant, that is banned in the US.

Tom House stated that " "six or seven" pitchers on every major league staff in the 1970s were "fiddling" with steroids or HGH.".

Pud Galvin of course was using in 1889 and they put him in the Hall.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/573866-pud-galvin-the-godfather-of-juicing

[ArtVanDelay]

Personally' date=' if one is to be kept out (Like McGwire, Bonds), then all should be. Either using banned substances keeps you out of the Hall or it doesn't. Pick one.[/b'] Personally, I think the should be more of a reason to be kept out than what Rose did, but again, I probably am in the minority there.

I don't think this is the issue. It's pretty clear that known PED users are being kept out of the Hall. The issue is that we don't know who used PEDs and who didn't. And we never will.

[Superbee83]

I kind of separate Rose from the steroid guys. Rose played the game hard and straight up. His "sins" came after he stopped playing,

and even after he was out of baseball. He obviously had/has a gambling addiction and no doubt, is a completely narcissistic jerk. My

feeling is that he didn't cheat the game while playing and should be allowed into the HOF.

On the other hand, the steroid users cheated while playing. They took steroids to enhance their abilities, to extend their careers, and

in the process, increase their personal wealth. They cheated the fans, the team owners, and the integrity of the game. I have zero

sympathy for them. They do not deserve a spot in Cooperstown, unless it is in a small house out behind the museum.....an outhouse.

I disagree with you regarding Rose. He admitted to the cardinal sin of betting on baseball. He

agreed to the deal that pretty much banned him ROM the game. During the past 25 years he

has consistently denied betting on baseball. He only came clean a couple of years ago when he published his book. ( Pretty convenient.) MLB made a poor move when they included Rose on the all century team. The guy was banned and he should not have been allowed on the field when the team was honored. I see the steroid guys in a different light as well. Bonds, Clemens,, and their compatriots are being vilified by the same media types who built them up when they

were playing. Further, IMO MLB fostered the atmosphere that encouraged the use of PED's.

Now players like Jeff Bag well are scrutinized for a " change in body type". Even if Rose was

reinstated, I seriously doubt that he would garner much support from the writers or veterans committee alike.

[weams]

Now players like Jeff Bag well are scrutinized for a " change in body type".

He absolutely admitted to Andro, like McGwire. It was not banned at the time, but Androstenedione was no mere supplement.

[NashLumber]

Does this quote from this (Cincinnati Enquirer) article change anything for those who say it was only playing days that mattered regarding his HOF credentials (ie. he didn't bet while a player)?

Dowd said his report clearly shows that Rose bet while he was player-manager for the Reds in 1986. Rose has continually denied betting on baseball as a player, even though he acknowledged in 2007 during an ESPN radio interview that he bet on the Reds "every night" as a manager.

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2015/03/21/rose-investigator-pete-belong-game/25112355/

[OFFNY]

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