Baseball America: 2014 International Spending Per Team

[hoosiers]

Yeah, it was really frustrating to watch the team win 96 games and go to the ALCS last year. But, I suppose you were so frustrated that you didn't bother getting your tickets to the playoff games.

Honestly, can we stop pretending this is 2011 and that we're on a 14-year losing streak? Can't we acknowledge that this is a great time to be an Orioles fan, regardless of whether you think we should spend more money on international talent? Can we admit that the Orioles are 11th or 12th in major league payroll?

If you are really that frustrated, then go root for the Yankees or the Red Sox and you'll feel much better.

I prefer to cheer for the Orioles (if that is okay with you) and I believe it is a legitimate question to ask why our international spend is 29 out of 30 teams.

I am a believer that our current competitiveness was fueled by collecting young talented prospects and am concerned that we are running out of fuel for future teams. is that a legitimate concern?

[BradyBunch]

International spending is overrated - especially at the high end, but it never hurts to dip one's toes in the middle end. There is clearly value in prospects under $50k, but I have said for over 10 years here that there is a sweet spot between $75k and $400+k (like where we found Jomar Reyes) or so where I believe there is also substantial value. I am not sitting here kicking the tires demanding $1M signings like a LOT of teams operate, but we can certainly spend more than what is listed above. I am a believer in what has been preached here for years that it is more important to spend wisely internationally and out-scout teams, but still this does not require NOT taking a few shots in the deep end and I am not advocating spending to the point where penalties and lost future international slots are incurred.

The Os do not appear to have spent half of their international slot when teams are spending multiples of theirs. There is a clear difference in priorities here relative to other teams that is more than a little disappointing on the surface.

Agree pretty much on the first part. Just disagree on $400k for flyers since pool money is limited. Reyes was highly scouted along with Diaz. They are also bonafide 1st/2nd rounders if they lived in the US. So those were steals. Then those numbers are incomplete. O's signed two Cubans not counted. Both cost $900k range. So we are talking 1.8m spent. They were alotted $2.2m. Then who knows what flyer under the $100k ranged wasn't reported.

Other teams break the rules and are fined. Like I said O's sign young guys (16-20) and develop them. Different ways to skin a cat.

[hoosiers]

Agree pretty much on the first part. Just disagree on $400k for flyers since pool money is limited. Reyes was highly scouted along with Diaz. They are also bonafide 1st/2nd rounders if they lived in the US. So those were steals. Then those numbers are incomplete. O's signed two Cubans not counted. Both cost $900k range. So we are talking 1.8m spent. They were alotted $2.2m. Then who knows what flyer under the $100k ranged wasn't reported.

Other teams break the rules and are fined. Like I said O's sign young guys (16-20) and develop them. Different ways to skin a cat.

First, you just can't add the spending for the Os internationally and fail to do the same for other clubs. Comps can't be made in a fishbowl.

I think it is quite clear that the perceived value of the spend on these Cubans relative to prospect rankings of other international signs by other clubs made at similar price points is inadequate by comparison. Just as Jomar Reyes will have more value than them.

Like I said, let's see if DD and his guys can puts out the competition for the under $50k guys - I just don't understand not spending close to our limit and scooping up some higher profile guys. The Os international operations just produced its best results by far in years w Schoop and EdRod - let's keep spending $ in that direction.

[Frobby]

I prefer to cheer for the Orioles (if that is okay with you) and I believe it is a legitimate question to ask why our international spend is 29 out of 30 teams.

I am a believer that our current competitiveness was fueled by collecting young talented prospects and am concerned that we are running out of fuel for future teams. is that a legitimate concern?

Sure it is, and I said in my post that it's possible to be dissatisfied with the team's international spending while acknowledging that this is a good time to be an O's fan.

[BradyBunch]

First, you just can't add the spending for the Os internationally and fail to do the same for other clubs. Comps can't be made in a fishbowl.

I think it is quite clear that the perceived value of the spend on these Cubans relative to prospect rankings of other international signs by other clubs made at similar price points is inadequate by comparison. Just as Jomar Reyes will have more value than them.

Like I said, let's see if DD and his guys can puts out the competition for the under $50k guys - I just don't understand not spending close to our limit and scooping up some higher profile guys. The Os international operations just produced its best results by far in years w Schoop and EdRod - let's keep spending $ in that direction.

I am not doing that. Rather I am pointing out the O's were actually close to their International signing bonus pool limit which is what is at question here.. or are you gonna be full of hypocrisy in just this topic alone? In post #30 you said "I am not advocating spending to the point where penalties and lost future international slots are incurred."

The Orioles are staying in the rules for International signings.

I am not comparing players from Cuba, Japan, Korea and Tawian who get special treatment because their leagues are considered professional. If you are 23 years old and played 5 years in those leagues you are granted Free Agent "status".

Guys like Yasmany Tomas and Yoan Moncada would count against the International signing bonous pool. Diamondbacks and Redsoxs are gonna be regreting those signings guys. Orioles on the other hand aren't gonna be kicking themselves if Urrita or Alavarez don't work out either. Nor if Diaz or Reyes or you know anybody on the two DSL teams.

Orioles aren't gonna sign high profile guys. Get over that. Orioles aren't gonna spend seven figures for an unproven guy nor are they gonna open themselves to being taxed at 100% and bonus restrictions the following year. You need to come back to earth if you really want that as it's fantasy and STUPID business practice.

Orioles spend close to their to their limit. They spend $1.9m for the 2014-2015 window. Their limit was $2.2m. 2015-2016 limit for the Orioles is $2.0m.

Schoop and EdRod were signed for chump change. So was Yeizer Marrugo,Ofelky Peralta and some others who have a chance. Orioles model is working right now. Sign alot of guys, drop them in DSL and find a couple diamonds in the rough and work on them state side. A bigger pool to select from, gives better results.

This idea of dropping multimillions down for a guy or two is what kills development. You think Yankees, Redsoxs, Dodgers have 5 or 6 guys (O's traded ERod) in the minors signed at around the 17-20 for less then a few hundred thousand.. who actually have a chance? No those teams overpay and hope that a guy like Moncada is actually worth his weight in gold.

That's the difference you are missing. Those teams like putting money in a big pile, throwing gas on it.. and then lighting it for fun. While teams like Cards and the Orioles like to develop players. Oscar Taveras was such a project.

[MrOrange82]

A synopsis of this (and many other) threads: if the O's don't do much of it, it's overrated. After all, [random other team with a good reputation] seems to take the same approach, and [random team's GM] is no dummy.

For better or worse, I guess we'll all see in a couple years whether not developing much MiL talent through the draft and not spending much on international/domestic free agents is really a winning strategy.

[hoosiers]

I am not doing that. Rather I am pointing out the O's were actually close to their International signing bonus pool limit which is what is at question here.. or are you gonna be full of hypocrisy in just this topic alone? In post #30 you said "I am not advocating spending to the point where penalties and lost future international slots are incurred."

The Orioles are staying in the rules for International signings.

I am not comparing players from Cuba, Japan, Korea and Tawian who get special treatment because their leagues are considered professional. If you are 23 years old and played 5 years in those leagues you are granted Free Agent "status".

Guys like Yasmany Tomas and Yoan Moncada would count against the International signing bonous pool. Diamondbacks and Redsoxs are gonna be regreting those signings guys. Orioles on the other hand aren't gonna be kicking themselves if Urrita or Alavarez don't work out either. Nor if Diaz or Reyes or you know anybody on the two DSL teams.

Orioles aren't gonna sign high profile guys. Get over that. Orioles aren't gonna spend seven figures for an unproven guy nor are they gonna open themselves to being taxed at 100% and bonus restrictions the following year. You need to come back to earth if you really want that as it's fantasy and STUPID business practice.

Orioles spend close to their to their limit. They spend $1.9m for the 2014-2015 window. Their limit was $2.2m. 2015-2016 limit for the Orioles is $2.0m.

Schoop and EdRod were signed for chump change. So was Yeizer Marrugo,Ofelky Peralta and some others who have a chance. Orioles model is working right now. Sign alot of guys, drop them in DSL and find a couple diamonds in the rough and work on them state side. A bigger pool to select from, gives better results.

This idea of dropping multimillions down for a guy or two is what kills development. You think Yankees, Redsoxs, Dodgers have 5 or 6 guys (O's traded ERod) in the minors signed at around the 17-20 for less then a few hundred thousand.. who actually have a chance? No those teams overpay and hope that a guy like Moncada is actually worth his weight in gold.

That's the difference you are missing. Those teams like putting money in a big pile, throwing gas on it.. and then lighting it for fun. While teams like Cards and the Orioles like to develop players. Oscar Taveras was such a project.

I think I quite clearly stated not to play in the high end of the international free agent signings, yet have to deal with your "Os aren't going to spend seven figures for an unproven guy" - which no one here has advocated and some (like me) have advocated against and the "they are not gonna open themselves to being taxed at 100% and bonus restrictions the following year" after quoting me about avoiding those very things.

Your method of discussing a topic by badgering someone for a point they never made is simply not worth responding to.

I will just repeat again - the Orioles international spend as tracked by Baseball America is insufficient and disappointing. I believe the top end of the international market is wasteful spending, but there is value below $400k-$500k - and will now vacate another thread involving bradybunch.

[CA-ORIOLE]

I am not doing that. Rather I am pointing out the O's were actually close to their International signing bonus pool limit which is what is at question here.. or are you gonna be full of hypocrisy in just this topic alone? In post #30 you said "I am not advocating spending to the point where penalties and lost future international slots are incurred."

The Orioles are staying in the rules for International signings.

I am not comparing players from Cuba, Japan, Korea and Tawian who get special treatment because their leagues are considered professional. If you are 23 years old and played 5 years in those leagues you are granted Free Agent "status".

Guys like Yasmany Tomas and Yoan Moncada would count against the International signing bonous pool. Diamondbacks and Redsoxs are gonna be regreting those signings guys. Orioles on the other hand aren't gonna be kicking themselves if Urrita or Alavarez don't work out either. Nor if Diaz or Reyes or you know anybody on the two DSL teams.

Orioles aren't gonna sign high profile guys. Get over that. Orioles aren't gonna spend seven figures for an unproven guy nor are they gonna open themselves to being taxed at 100% and bonus restrictions the following year. You need to come back to earth if you really want that as it's fantasy and STUPID business practice.

Orioles spend close to their to their limit. They spend $1.9m for the 2014-2015 window. Their limit was $2.2m. 2015-2016 limit for the Orioles is $2.0m.

Schoop and EdRod were signed for chump change. So was Yeizer Marrugo,Ofelky Peralta and some others who have a chance. Orioles model is working right now. Sign alot of guys, drop them in DSL and find a couple diamonds in the rough and work on them state side. A bigger pool to select from, gives better results.

This idea of dropping multimillions down for a guy or two is what kills development. You think Yankees, Redsoxs, Dodgers have 5 or 6 guys (O's traded ERod) in the minors signed at around the 17-20 for less then a few hundred thousand.. who actually have a chance? No those teams overpay and hope that a guy like Moncada is actually worth his weight in gold.

That's the difference you are missing. Those teams like putting money in a big pile, throwing gas on it.. and then lighting it for fun. While teams like Cards and the Orioles like to develop players. Oscar Taveras was such a project.

Pretty informative post. Thanks.

[SteveO]

International spending is overrated. If you are taking flyers at $400-500k you are wasting resources as the International market has slotted bonus pool spending cap and this is based winning % which means for the Orioles not alot of money for bonuses. In 2014-2015 period Orioles were limited to $2.25m, in 2015-2016.. that will get even smaller. Then on top of that limit if you go over it.. you get taxed if you are 5-10% over, if you are tax 75% on the difference. If you are 10-15% it's 100% tax plus a limit to $500k bonus for a player next cycle. 15% or more 100% tax and limit to $250k bonus for any player. So there is a cap on what you can sign and how you sign. For example Texas screwed the pooch in 2013. They were restricted in the 2014 period. They got off restriction this year and blew their load again. Yankees have as well. End of the day all those signings by Texas and Yankees (even other teams) that caused them to go over bonus pool limits is basically paying 2xs for that player. So paying double for flyers is asinine.

It's only overrated if your scouting is poor. One need only look down the average MLB roster to see how much top level talent there is from these areas of the world.

Not fully engaging in these markets is utterly ridiculous IMO. Its essentially closing yourself off to a market of players that accounts for somewhere around 25% of the games talent. You can polish or spin that anyway you want and its still a turd. The Orioles have made big strides in other areas in terms of acquiring and developing talent. I really hope that moving forward they begin to utilize the international market more fully.

I don't expect the Orioles to spend on a guy like Thomas or Mocada. I do think its reasonable to expect them to spend the money that they are allotted. If your scouting department is worth a hoot then that unspent money represents lost talent IMO. If your scouting department cannot find talent to spend that money on, then something is seriously amiss.

I love the O's and am proud of the progress they have made, not bashing the team as a whole but in this one particular department I want to pull what little hair I have left out when I see wasted opportunities like that.

[wildcard]

There has been a influx of international talent into the O's system that I can't really argue with. Just because it doesn't show up on this chart doesn't mean that Dan has not found ways to add international talent that is cheap yet productive. Look at these guys:

Paredes - is on the fringes of making the team. Looks like the guy can hit.

Alvarez - Looks like the future right fielder.

Cabrera - Will make the team as the fill in for Hardy. He has shown both offensive and defensive abilities that are major league in the last two weeks of ST.

Urrutia - Looked like a hitter this spring. May have a role on the 2016 Orioles.

Navarro - All this guy does in hit and show he can play a very good 2B. Can also play SS and 3B. He could pass Flaherty in the near future. Has a bunch of All-Star awards in the minors.

Ozzie Martinez - Has impressed Buck with his ability to play SS. And he can hit. Had a very good winter season.

De Aza - Looks like the starting left fielder and sometimes leadoff hitter.

Schoop - Promoted to the majors last year because his defense was needed. Key part of the AL East Championship run.

Almanzar - Dan sees something in this guy. It hasn't been evident yet but he may be the Tides 3B this year.

Audry Perez - May be the back up catcher for the 2016 O's. Probably on the shuttle. He has options.

You guys have mentioned other guys in the minors.

So Dad seems to have found international talent on the cheap. Maybe a market value spot that others are not fully utilizing.

[BradyBunch]

I think I quite clearly stated not to play in the high end of the international free agent signings, yet have to deal with your "Os aren't going to spend seven figures for an unproven guy" - which no one here has advocated and some (like me) have advocated against and the "they are not gonna open themselves to being taxed at 100% and bonus restrictions the following year" after quoting me about avoiding those very things.

But they aren't going to avoid those things if you think the Orioles can spend more then $2.2m in total (2014-2015) and more then $2.0m (2015-2016). That's the LIMIT per MLB International Bonus Pools And Slot Values for the Orioles that year. 2014-2015: http://www.baseballamerica.com/international/2014-15-mlb-international-bonus-pools-and-slot-values/

2015-2016: http://www.baseballamerica.com/international/2015-16-mlb-international-bonus-pools/

That means if the Orioles spend $2.2m this year. That's a 100% fine. Yankees in 2014-2015 paid a fine of $17m. Ray paid $4m in fines. So you can't have it both ways.. thus the hypocrisy on your part.

Your method of discussing a topic by badgering someone for a point they never made is simply not worth responding to.

You mean giving you facts you end up ignoring because it doesn't fit your small view of what the rules are. I get it. Doesn't make you happy the O's aren't breaking the rules every year.. but maybe, just maybe.. the issue isn't the Orioles aren't spending enough but rather MLB has weak rules against teams and their international spending. Ever consider that?

I will just repeat again - the Orioles international spend as tracked by Baseball America is insufficient and disappointing. I believe the top end of the international market is wasteful spending, but there is value below $400k-$500k - and will now vacate another thread involving bradybunch.

I'll repeat again, so you finally understand.. Baseball of America doesn't COUNT certain players because and I quote them..."The spending records exclude Cuban players, regardless of whether they are subject to the bonus pools, since just one of those players can swing the data significantly."

They are cherry picking the data. Orioles signed TWO cuban players that put the Orioles at the max of their spending limit. So to people like you it looks like the O's can spend more.. but if Baseball of America actually didn't hide numbers by excluding from Cuba subject to bonus pools.. you'd find the Orioles were at their max spending limit. That if the Orioles spend $400k on another player(s) it would have been hit by fines. But alas.. you keep ignoring facts and cherry picking data to FIT your view instead of looking at the whole picture. If you look at the whole picture you'd find the Orioles are spending their maximum in which they wouldn't get a fine.

[Coker]

But they aren't going to avoid those things if you think the Orioles can spend more then $2.2m in total (2014-2015) and more then $2.0m (2015-2016). That's the LIMIT per MLB International Bonus Pools And Slot Values for the Orioles that year. 2014-2015: http://www.baseballamerica.com/international/2014-15-mlb-international-bonus-pools-and-slot-values/

2015-2016: http://www.baseballamerica.com/international/2015-16-mlb-international-bonus-pools/

That means if the Orioles spend $2.2m this year. That's a 100% fine. Yankees in 2014-2015 paid a fine of $17m. Ray paid $4m in fines. So you can't have it both ways.. thus the hypocrisy on your part.

You mean giving you facts you end up ignoring because it doesn't fit your small view of what the rules are. I get it. Doesn't make you happy the O's aren't breaking the rules every year.. but maybe, just maybe.. the issue isn't the Orioles aren't spending enough but rather MLB has weak rules against teams and their international spending. Ever consider that?

I'll repeat again, so you finally understand.. Baseball of America doesn't COUNT certain players because and I quote them..."The spending records exclude Cuban players, regardless of whether they are subject to the bonus pools, since just one of those players can swing the data significantly."

They are cherry picking the data. Orioles signed TWO cuban players that put the Orioles at the max of their spending limit. So to people like you it looks like the O's can spend more.. but if Baseball of America actually didn't hide numbers by excluding from Cuba subject to bonus pools.. you'd find the Orioles were at their max spending limit. That if the Orioles spend $400k on another player(s) it would have been hit by fines. But alas.. you keep ignoring facts and cherry picking data to FIT your view instead of looking at the whole picture. If you look at the whole picture you'd find the Orioles are spending their maximum in which they wouldn't get a fine.

Except the O's only signed one Cuban player (Lazaro Levya) that would have impacted their amateur pool. The other, OFer Elier Levya does not count against the bonus pool because he was 23 when signed.

[DrungoHazewood]

Go to this thread and post #4. There is definitely some big money being spent on players that never make it.

Isn't it true that any time you are allocating resources to future hypotheticals you will have some level of failure? I'm sure there are many people who saved 20-30 years for retirement or their kids' college and died at 57 or had their kids never go to college. That doesn't make those type of investments wrong. I think it's at least an open question as to whether or not the Orioles' strategy of not making even standard allocation levels of international investment will work long-term.

[DrungoHazewood]

That means if the Orioles spend $2.2m this year. That's a 100% fine. Yankees in 2014-2015 paid a fine of $17m. Ray paid $4m in fines.

They call it a fine, because the powers-that-be don't want teams to do this. But in reality it's clear some teams think their return on investment with these signings will be just positive at a level of (over limit bonuses + fine). The Yanks and Rays believe the revenues they bring in from winning due to this is worth paying the extra fine. Do you think that is misguided? If so, why?

[DrungoHazewood]

There has been a influx of international talent into the O's system that I can't really argue with. Just because it doesn't show up on this chart doesn't mean that Dan has not found ways to add international talent that is cheap yet productive. Look at these guys:

Paredes - is on the fringes of making the team. Looks like the guy can hit.

Alvarez - Looks like the future right fielder.

Cabrera - Will make the team as the fill in for Hardy. He has shown both offensive and defensive abilities that are major league in the last two weeks of ST.

Urrutia - Looked like a hitter this spring. May have a role on the 2016 Orioles.

Navarro - All this guy does in hit and show he can play a very good 2B. Can also play SS and 3B. He could pass Flaherty in the near future. Has a bunch of All-Star awards in the minors.

Ozzie Martinez - Has impressed Buck with his ability to play SS. And he can hit. Had a very good winter season.

De Aza - Looks like the starting left fielder and sometimes leadoff hitter.

Schoop - Promoted to the majors last year because his defense was needed. Key part of the AL East Championship run.

Almanzar - Dan sees something in this guy. It hasn't been evident yet but he may be the Tides 3B this year.

Audry Perez - May be the back up catcher for the 2016 O's. Probably on the shuttle. He has options.

You guys have mentioned other guys in the minors.

So Dad seems to have found international talent on the cheap. Maybe a market value spot that others are not fully utilizing.

That's fine, it's nice to have role players for relatively cheap investments. But that's all those guys are likely to be, with the possible exception of Schoop. You're not going to find a star or even an above-average regular very often with low-cost signings.