Article on the Importance of Pitch Framing

[weams]

Did you also see the part where Molina is one of the worst framers in the league this year?

The ability to frame is supposed to start degrading after a catcher hits 30 but the numbers they have for Molina this year show nothing short of a precipitous drop.

How is a framing skeptic supposed to respond to that sort of data anomaly?

Just by saying it is not a skill. It depends upon umpire error. And it won't last. Those three should be enough.

[Can_of_corn]

The best data would account for pitchers skill. I don't think umps make that big of a difference since they are spread around.

But what if, hypothetically, certain umps reacted differently to different framing?

For instance maybe a catcher is good at framing the low strike, if you pair him with an Ump that favors a low strike it would be potentially more impactful then an Ump that doesn't have a low strike zone.

Do we know if the ability to frame is consistent with all parts of the strike zone? Maybe if you have a staff full of sinker guys with one guy that uses the high strike then it would behoove a team to have a personal catcher who is more skilled at framing the high strike?

There are just so many potential variables.

[Can_of_corn]

Just by saying it is not a skill. It depends upon umpire error. And it won't last. Those three should be enough.

Well I do think it is a skill.

It would be interesting if, as part of the feedback, Umps are told how many erroneous calls in a game are influenced by framing.

[weams]

Well I do think it is a skill.

It would be interesting if, as part of the feedback, Umps are told how many erroneous calls in a game are influenced by framing.

Ok. It's a skill like juggling. It's not that important. And society doesn't really condone it as a professional task. And the robots are coming.

[CA-ORIOLE]

But what if, hypothetically, certain umps reacted differently to different framing?

For instance maybe a catcher is good at framing the low strike, if you pair him with an Ump that favors a low strike it would be potentially more impactful then an Ump that doesn't have a low strike zone.

Do we know if the ability to frame is consistent with all parts of the strike zone? Maybe if you have a staff full of sinker guys with one guy that uses the high strike then it would behoove a team to have a personal catcher who is more skilled at framing the high strike?

There are just so many potential variables.

Yeah, sorry that's just a pretty huge reach and not much of an argument imo. Hypothetically, if some catchers can exploit a certain umpire more than others can, than that's a skill. In the end, the umps should move around enough as not to matter that much anyways.

[Can_of_corn]

Yeah, sorry that's just a pretty huge reach and not much of an argument imo.

Yeah, sorry I disagree.

I think just throwing out all the umpire data with the bathwater is a pretty lazy way to evaluate something.

Back to another point I made, do we know if certain catchers are more skilled at framing pitches to a certain part of the strike zone then others?

I wouldn't think that the skill would be exactly consistent toward all quadrants.

I haven't see that information out there, have you?

If folks are going to assign a significant value to this skill then they need to step up their efforts to quantify it.

[CA-ORIOLE]

Ok. It's a skill like juggling. It's not that important. And society doesn't really condone it as a professional task.

It's kinda like the money counters in the Philippines and Indonesia.

[CA-ORIOLE]

Yeah, sorry I disagree.

I think just throwing out all the umpire data with the bathwater is a pretty lazy way to evaluate something.

Back to another point I made, do we know if certain catchers are more skilled at framing pitches to a certain part of the strike zone then others?

I wouldn't think that the skill would be exactly consistent toward all quadrants.

I haven't see that information out there, have you?

If folks are going to assign a significant value to this skill then they need to step up their efforts to quantify it.

I tend to look at these things from a larger aggregate scale than on a micro one. Other than accounting for the pitchers skills and ensuring that the data is compared as an apples to apples rate of efficiency, I don't see much issue with it unless there is some serious issue with the accounting methodology and value. The latter has nothing to do with the umpire influence which should wash in the aggregate data imo. If an umpire can be exploited then exploit him. if you can be more effective in certain counts, against certain hitters, and in certain quadrants, then do it. These types of things seem to be integral to the catchers skills. I don't really see much of a point. Some catchers are smarter at calling games than others?

That Molina (an elite pitch framer) has been worth 11 wins in 8 season doesn't raise much of ared flag to me. Neither does 1/7th of a seasons worth of data.

We'll have to disagree.

[Redskins Rick]

I would love to put this question to Palmer or Dempsey, and get their opinion of it, is Wieters a good framing or not?

Hey Roy, what do you think, can you do this?

[Can_of_corn]

I would love to put this question to Palmer or Dempsey, and get their opinion of it, is Wieters a good framing or not?

Hey Roy, what do you think, can you do this?

The stats, such as they are, say he was good early and fell off.

Of course the stats have not been compiled by the same folks over the time period.

[Three Run Homer]

I'm glad that Caleb Jospeh is good at framing pitches, but I don't like the idea that the ability to fool umpires is now considered an essential part of the catcher's toolkit.

Umpires should call balls and strikes correctly regardless of how well a catcher "sells" a pitch, and if they can't do it, then bring on the robots.

The NBA is widely and justifiably seen as crooked because there is too much subjectivity in officials' calls, and too many games are decided by borderline calls that always seem to favor certain players and teams. It would be a shame if MLB went down the same road.

[Can_of_corn]

I'm glad that Caleb Jospeh is good at framing pitches, but I don't like the idea that the ability to fool umpires is now considered an essential part of the catcher's toolkit.

Umpires should call balls and strikes correctly regardless of how well a catcher "sells" a pitch, and if they can't do it, then bring on the robots.

The NBA is widely and justifiably seen as crooked because there is too much subjectivity in officials' calls, and too many games are decided by borderline calls that always seem to favor certain players and teams. It would be a shame if MLB went down the same road.

Might as well make official scorers employees of the league and not the teams while you are at it.