Roch: O's don't like Penn's attitude

[Witchy_Chick]

A good point.

I just think there's something going on behind the scenes that we don't know about with Penn.

I totally agree -- and said as much in a Penn-thread last summer when he was languishing in AAA "rehabbing."

Look at the timeline. Penn comes up in 2005, and does fairly decent to start. By about start #5 or 6, he starts to look overmatched and gets sent back down (IIRC, after a disastrous start in Atlanta July timeframe).

In 2006, he does pretty well in the minors and gets called up. Immediately prior to his 2006 debut in Seattle, he suffers an appendectomy. Totally not his fault. During his rehab from that, he was (to borrow an SG term) "dominating" in AAA. During this stretch, RLo and Chen were sucking a$$ with the big club. And, yet, Penn did not get called up until rosters expanded in September. And we all know how he did then.

Off-season 2006, he was rumored to be part of the Roberts trade to Atlanta for LaRoche. That deal fell apart because Angelos did not want Brian included -- not a lot was mentioned about Penn. Clearly his stock with the FO has fallen. Why? Pure speculation on my part, but Hayden turned 21 last year. Now that he's "legal," is he too busy partying to worry about his career/conditioning? Who knows? Like I said, pure speculation on my part. But something has soured the FO on Hayden Penn. And, IMO, it ain't just a poor September showing from last season. Nor is it an isolated incident of Penn forgetting his equipment bag in ST 2007.

Witchy

[DrungoHazewood]

Not based on the MiL numbers.

I'm a huge Knott fan, maybe leader of the Knott crazies here.

Nick Markakis was a far, far better prospect than Jon Knott ever was. The difference between their AA performances when you take into account age and offensive numbers is vast, huge.

Here's a quote from the 1987 Baseball Abstract, in an article on evaluating rookies:

In trying to figure out how much a player will develop, probably the one most important factor to consider, other than the player's ability, is his age. Every year is important. If you compare a 20-year-old rookie and a 25-year-old rookie of exactly the same ability, the 20-year-old rookie can be expected to play almost three times as many games in the major leagues. A 20-year-old rookie can be expected to hit about four times as many home runs as a 25-year-old rookie of the same ability.

Markakis outperformed Knott at the same level at three years younger. The difference between them was immense.

Misperceptions of things like this are what cause the idea that minor league numbers aren't particularly meaningful.

[El Gordo]

I totally agree -- and said as much in a Penn-thread last summer when he was languishing in AAA "rehabbing."

Look at the timeline. Penn comes up in 2005, and does fairly decent to start. By about start #5 or 6, he starts to look overmatched and gets sent back down (IIRC, after a disastrous start in Atlanta July timeframe).

In 2006, he does pretty well in the minors and gets called up. Immediately prior to his 2006 debut in Seattle, he suffers an appendectomy. Totally not his fault. During his rehab from that, he was (to borrow an SG term) "dominating" in AAA. During this stretch, RLo and Chen were sucking a$$ with the big club. And, yet, Penn did not get called up until rosters expanded in September. And we all know how he did then.

Off-season 2006, he was rumored to be part of the Roberts trade to Atlanta for LaRoche. That deal fell apart because Angelos did not want Brian included -- not a lot was mentioned about Penn. Clearly his stock with the FO has fallen. Why? Pure speculation on my part, but Hayden turned 21 last year. Now that he's "legal," is he too busy partying to worry about his career/conditioning? Who knows? Like I said, pure speculation on my part. But something has soured the FO on Hayden Penn. And, IMO, it ain't just a poor September showing from last season. Nor is it an isolated incident of Penn forgetting his equipment bag in ST 2007.

Witchy

Verrrryyyy Interesting. To bad we can't play the Law and Order sound or the theme from Perry Mason after your thread. Sounds plausable to me,(inveterate conspiricay theorist that I am) particularly the day after sir Party boy was in town.

[wildcard]

I'm more concerned about Trachsel and Wright than Penn.

Guthrie was given a chance today to start and he didn't respond to well. More to come on that. The next 10 days of ST well be interesting.

[wildcard]

I think Guthrie did well. Giving up a 2 run homer to Miguel Cabera is forgiveable. He didn't let things get out of hand after that. One walk and 4 K's. Not bad.

As for Penn. Just a reminder, especially for the conspiracy theorists. Last year in the offseason there were a bunch of rumors and whispers about how the O's were not too thrilled with Erik Bedard's attitude, heart, etc.. There were rumors that they were willing to deal him. Rumors that he wasn't hurt as bad as he made it out to be in 2005. Rumors that he didn't have what it takes. Now, everyone says he's an ace, and a good guy.

Forgiveable, sure, but Guthrie had a chance to stretch out to 3 innings and didn't take advantage of it. The 2 run homer probably affected that. At two innings he is still looked at as a reliever. If he had went 3 he would have been progress to be a starter.

Instead Penn went 3 innings while being punished. That keeps Penn ahead of Guthrie if one of the starters stumble. Sorry I sure have said fall. Trachsel is already staggering.

[wildcard]

The O's haven't looked like they've been trying to stretch out Guthrie even before this. Two innings has been his limit. I don't see how one home run ball made him reach his pitch limit too early.

A long reliever that can only go 2 innings? They should be stretching him out more.

[cindyluvsbrady]

Hayden seems like a really nice guy!! This shocks me!

[slaphitter]

Hayden was ticked off when spring invite Rob Bell was seeing more action , thus stealing his job in the process.

Penn made his own bed and slept in the wet spot. We'll see him sooner than later at the show. I'm as shocked as any by his so called 'tude.

The FO has wanted Bell for some time. Now that he's available at the minimum AND he's pitching well , it gives Sam and Leo another option. I guess they're gonna use it.

Poor Penn. Go straight to jail ( Norfolk ). Do not pass Go.

[Flosman]

Guys I think Penn just got caught by a seemingly tighter operation being run this year. I think no mention of things like this might have beeen standard operating practice for a long while with the O's. Sammy and Flanny sent a shot over all the players bow. They are saying You guys are professionals , act like it and take care of your business. Penn was in the doghouse yesterday. But a good coaches doghouse is easy to get in and with good performance and taking care of business pretty easy to get out of. I personally think we are making way to much out of next to nothing.

[rolliefingers]

It's a kid's move.

And Penn is...how old, again? It was a dumb mistake. I'd rather have a guy who can pitch and makes dumb, inconsequential mistakes, over a guy who remembers his bag and gets shelled every game.

[Cavspider]

Hayden Penn. You guys put him on a pedestal and I think he must read too much about himself.

My opinion of what I have read is that Penn got permission to skip riding the bus with everyone else and drive himself. (Manager says, ok kid, rope to hang yourself, want to be a loner, be responsible...) Penn did not forget his bag, he left it for someone else to take to the game! For emphasis, HE LEFT HIS BAG FOR SOMEONE ELSE TO TAKE, HE DID NOT FORGET IT! Sounds like someone is getting too big for his britches if you ask me. Sounds like someone thinks he has some sort of entitlement.

Kids from the minors dont get others to take their gear here and there like they are stars do they? Sounds like an attitude problem that likely is more pronounced than just this one incident. Something the staff wants to deal with before it gets worse. Something the staff wants him to do is want it, not expect an entitlement because everyone says he will be in the majors sooner than later.

The kid is a kid. He needs to mature and realize hard work brings out the most in those with talent. Talent only goes so far with a poor attitude of entitlement.

Anyway, the bag wasnt forgotten. It was intentionally left behind IMO by both Penn AND the O's. Is it a big deal? Lets hope not. If it is a big deal, it is Penn's fault.

[Moose Milligan]

And Penn is...how old, again? It was a dumb mistake. I'd rather have a guy who can pitch and makes dumb, inconsequential mistakes, over a guy who remembers his bag and gets shelled every game.

The forgetting the bag part was a dumb mistake. Not calling was the worst part of this, IMO.

[ijoshyounot]

I totally agree -- and said as much in a Penn-thread last summer when he was languishing in AAA "rehabbing."

Look at the timeline. Penn comes up in 2005, and does fairly decent to start. By about start #5 or 6, he starts to look overmatched and gets sent back down (IIRC, after a disastrous start in Atlanta July timeframe).

In 2006, he does pretty well in the minors and gets called up. Immediately prior to his 2006 debut in Seattle, he suffers an appendectomy. Totally not his fault. During his rehab from that, he was (to borrow an SG term) "dominating" in AAA. During this stretch, RLo and Chen were sucking a$$ with the big club. And, yet, Penn did not get called up until rosters expanded in September. And we all know how he did then.

Off-season 2006, he was rumored to be part of the Roberts trade to Atlanta for LaRoche. That deal fell apart because Angelos did not want Brian included -- not a lot was mentioned about Penn. Clearly his stock with the FO has fallen. Why? Pure speculation on my part, but Hayden turned 21 last year. Now that he's "legal," is he too busy partying to worry about his career/conditioning? Who knows? Like I said, pure speculation on my part. But something has soured the FO on Hayden Penn. And, IMO, it ain't just a poor September showing from last season. Nor is it an isolated incident of Penn forgetting his equipment bag in ST 2007.

Witchy

Not to turn this into a gossip thread but I'm good friends with a bouncer who turned down Penn's fake ID as a joke once. Penn turning 21 hasn't affected the amount he parties (he already partied)...

[goodburger34]

http://blogs.baltimoresun.com/sports_custom_roch/2007/03/closing_the_boo.html

Doesn't sound likely he's heading north.

Makes sense. Seriously how are we going to come back strong this year with someone like this upseting our lockeroom chemistry/veteran presence?

[wildcard]

I think Guthrie did well. Giving up a 2 run homer to Miguel Cabera is forgiveable. He didn't let things get out of hand after that. One walk and 4 K's. Not bad.

I think this is the wrong thought process. Giving up 2 runs in 2 inning is not good. It doesn't matter if it is to a good hitter or not. Guthrie if he makes the team probably is going to have to face Ortiz, Manny and Drew or Jeter, ARod and Giambi. Saying that giving up 2 runs in 2 inning is not bad in not the thinking the O's should condone.

Is Guthrie still the leading candidate for long reliever? I think he is, but he has to do better if he wants to hold that spot no matter how many he strikes out.