Jump to content

As much as most of us root for Crush... He's not helping on offense...


Bazooka Jones

Recommended Posts

Wow! You actually pulled out the "you never played the game so you can't know anything about it" card. That's awesome, straight out of a bad B movie. I thought that only existed in cigar-smoke filled rooms of 82-year-old scouts.

Islandecho is that guy. Only he is a horse trainer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 161
  • Created
  • Last Reply
I'm reading the Billy Martin bio. Nobody paid more attention to the intangibles than Billy. He knew all the opposing players, the managers and the umpires, where their buttons were and knew how to push them A lot of what he did would make the numbers guys blanche but it often worked. But in reality he wasn't much different than his rival Earl who was a fore runner to numbers crunching, but also a brilliant button pusher. I think it foolish to ignore the value of both.

You know I was just goofin with Herman and his boys. I understand the value of pushing buttons, I've had mine pushed more than a few times, and I used to use that constantly in soccer to goad the opposition into cards. But I think it has less value in baseball, especially among rational and mature adults who have experience playing long seasons with many games against the same opponents. Of course Billy Martin wasn't much of a rational or mature adult.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, yeah, it's really easy for you to come on here now while the team is stinking and pronounce "hey look at me, I was right about us sucking".

No, stats, no matter how compelling, should be selectively dismissed and ridiculed by guys like Herman who have nothing more intelligent to say than "stats don't account for everything. Take momentum for example" and "I don't care about production if the strikeouts are too high".

Do you honestly believe that major league teams have not pumped tons of resources into analytics over the past 15-20 years? They don't have the capability to balance analytics, scouting and other factors?

You and I have always gotten along well, but we have disagreed often on my reliance on some of the old school evaluations. Also, I have been a denier of the quality of some of the newer methods, especially regarding defense. We have discussed this amicably for us both, but probably frustrating for you from time to time.

I think that I am probably the outlier for someone with his feet dug in on some of this.

If you deny the quality of the efforts, expense, and work to improve this game stronger than I have - you are way out there. Way.

The world of baseball has passed you by.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You know I was just goofin with Herman and his boys. I understand the value of pushing buttons, I've had mine pushed more than a few times, and I used to use that constantly in soccer to goad the opposition into cards. But I think it has less value in baseball, especially among rational and mature adults who have experience playing long seasons with many games against the same opponents. Of course Billy Martin wasn't much of a rational or mature adult.
First the notion that baseball players or managers for that matter are rational or adult is often suspect. And Billy was effectively crazy like some pitchers are effectively wild. He once called a double steal with the bases loaded, can you believe it, because he knew the opposing catcher was easily rattled. Instead of stepping in the plate and throwing to a base for the DP the C over threw 3B, and 2 R scored.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You know I was just goofin with Herman and his boys. I understand the value of pushing buttons, I've had mine pushed more than an few times, and I used to use that constantly in soccer to goad the opposition into cards. But I think it has less value in baseball, especially among rational and mature adults who have experience playing long seasons with many games against the same opponents. Of course Billy Martin wasn't much of a rational or mature adult.

Billy Martin wanted to drop Reggie Jackson to sixth in the order from cleanup because he struck out too much. The GM had to step in and tell him no. So Billy and Herman probably would have gotten along great.

Not gonna bash Martin though. He did some stuff very well. Managing his pitchers and platooning were major strengths as I recall. Both stuff he learned from Stengel. Small ball tactics, like bunting and hit and run, were more questionable, but he probably did have guys that did it well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You know I was just goofin with Herman and his boys. I understand the value of pushing buttons, I've had mine pushed more than a few times, and I used to use that constantly in soccer to goad the opposition into cards. But I think it has less value in baseball, especially among rational and mature adults who have experience playing long seasons with many games against the same opponents. Of course Billy Martin wasn't much of a rational or mature adult.

His self-destructive behavior followed him right up until the nature of his tragic death in a car accident (Martin was riding in a car with a driver that was drunk) in 1989.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Billy Martin wanted to drop Reggie Jackson to sixth in the order from cleanup because he struck out too much. The GM had to step in and tell him no. So Billy and Herman probably would have gotten along great.

Not gonna bash Martin though. He did some stuff very well. Managing his pitchers and platooning were major strengths as I recall. Both stuff he learned from Stengel. Small ball tactics, like bunting and hit and run, were more questionable, but he probably did have guys that did it well.

His self-destructive behavior followed him right up until the nature of his tragic death in a car accident (Martin was riding in a car with a driver that was drunk) in 1989.

Billy unquestionably had a positive short term effect on wins for his teams. But those same teams quickly tired of his act and faded. Or at least imploded internally. I don't think it's exactly a secret that he drank prodigious quantities of alcohol, and that couldn't have helped his state of mind and the ability to get along with others.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm fine with strikeouts when the player is being productive in his other at bats. From April 15 to May 5, a stretch of 16 games, Davis stuck out 25 times in 68 PA but he also hit .310/.382/.638 with 5 homers and 16 RBI. Since then, he has struck out 27 times in 74 PA (pretty much the same ratio), but he's hit .123/.216/.262 with 2 homers and 5 RBI. He's just not making solid contact and he looks very uncomfortable at the plate right now. It's not a matter of hitting in bad luck, either. He just doesn't have it together. Hopefully he'll have one good game and that will set him off on a tear.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Billy unquestionably had a positive short term effect on wins for his teams. But those same teams quickly tired of his act and faded. Or at least imploded internally. I don't think it's exactly a secret that he drank prodigious quantities of alcohol, and that couldn't have helped his state of mind and the ability to get along with others.
There seem to be a lot of misconceptions and generalities about Martin. I thought pretty much the same thing until I started reading his bio. Very complex and interesting guy.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

His self-destructive behavior followed him right up until the nature of his tragic death in a car accident (Martin was riding in a car with a driver that was drunk) in 1989.

I remember the story as him being in the back of a truck with some sheets of plywood. They caught a burst of wind and the surface area of the plywood propelled him out of the cab and onto the street. Now maybe I'm wrong and that story was pure fiction, but I recall it even today because of its sheer idiocy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I remember the story as him being in the back of a truck with some sheets of plywood. They caught a burst of wind and the surface area of the plywood propelled him out of the cab and onto the street. Now maybe I'm wrong and that story was pure fiction, but I recall it even today because of its sheer idiocy.
The story according to Reedy was that they had both been drinking but Martin was driving. Reedy told police when they arrived that he had been driving in order to spare his buddy a DUI, not yet knowing Martin had died. He said the accident had more to do with ice and the absence of guard rails than alcohol.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...