Sun articles on recruiting and potential transfers

[inmn]

Bowie, Hayes, Milbourne, and (oh, by the way) VASQUEZ are filler?

Uh huh. Right. Sure.

So, had Gary Williams put in more effort on those guys, how many of them would we have got?

Could they have all still decided to go elsewhere, along with some of the guys we DID get who would not have been recruited enough?

You are right, I forgot about Vasquez, the rest were not "big" recruits and certainly not difference makers at this point in their career-all will likely be career back ups. You also bring up a good point in another of your posts, that turnover at the assistant level has had an affect (witness Adams dismissal)-but GW is ultimately responsible.

But any of the kids from that list could have put Md over the top.

IMO they are missing that one special player and a Lawson, Durrant, Greene, Reynolds, or Beasley would make a big difference.

I also believe GW realizes the lack of talent in last year's class and has brought in four starter quality players. He is also by all accounts much more involved in the recruiting process even directly scouting SO class kids, Md is involved with almost every big time recruit in the FR-SO-JR class in the DC/Balt area. With no scholarships to give next year class they still have offers out for:Cheek (15), Armwood (37), Echenique (top50), Taylor(35), Creek (75) Fitzgerald (top 100) and Spurlock (150).

Latest rumors have Gregory transferring (whispers that he is not working hard enough in practice). Walker also may be leaving due to off court issues (academics?). Maze is not a lock to be admitted, he still has to upgrade his credentials-if he doesn't show this would be a big blow to next year's class.

[inmn]

Gary re built the program literally from nothing after the fiasco that was Bob Wade. The NCAA was thisclose to giving Maryland the death penalty in '91.

I'm not discrediting Lefty's legacy in any way, but Gary was basically starting from scratch when he got there, and deserves much if not all of the credit for Maryland's run of success from '94 to the present.

I was very close to the program during that period and there were a lot of complicated issues but Md never would have received the "death" penalty.

GW was shocked at the penalties they received, I know the press reports it that way but politically there was no way (that's all I can say). GW did do a great job rebuilding the program but a lot of younger people don't realize how good Lefty's teams were.

[ccbird]

You are right, I forgot about Vasquez, the rest were not "big" recruits and certainly not difference makers at this point in their career-all will likely be career back ups. You also bring up a good point in another of your posts, that turnover at the assistant level has had an affect (witness Adams dismissal)-but GW is ultimately responsible.

But any of the kids from that list could have put Md over the top.

IMO they are missing that one special player and a Lawson, Durrant, Greene, Reynolds, or Beasley would make a big difference.

I also believe GW realizes the lack of talent in last year's class and has brought in four starter quality players. He is also by all accounts much more involved in the recruiting process even directly scouting SO class kids, Md is involved with almost every big time recruit in the FR-SO-JR class in the DC/Balt area. With no scholarships to give next year class they still have offers out for:Cheek (15), Armwood (37), Echenique (top50), Taylor(35), Creek (75) Fitzgerald (top 100) and Spurlock (150).

Latest rumors have Gregory transferring (whispers that he is not working hard enough in practice). Walker also may be leaving due to off court issues (academics?). Maze is not a lock to be admitted, he still has to upgrade his credentials-if he doesn't show this would be a big blow to next year's class.

Understatement alert. If either Vasquez or Hayes is our primary PG and ball handler next year we are in trouble .

[weemnj]

I was very close to the program during that period and there were a lot of complicated issues but Md never would have received the "death" penalty.

GW was shocked at the penalties they received, I know the press reports it that way but politically there was no way (that's all I can say). GW did do a great job rebuilding the program but a lot of younger people don't realize how good Lefty's teams were.

No disrespect--but what other schools received such severe penalties?---Other schools were caught sending cash and were treated less harshly!

And YES Lefty was great in a different era and before these sanctions.

Hopefully the new 3 point line will take this sport away from parity.

I was acquainted with GW at Maryland as well as Joe Harrington and old-schoolishly applaud and uphold him for NOT KISSING THESE KIDS A$$ES.

But I grudgingly believe if he does not pull this program back up within the next 2 to 3 years max-----it would be time for change.

[inmn]

Weem,

Md was hit for lack of institutional control. It wasn't the individual action or actions themselves, it was lack of accountability in the basketball department and the athletic department. Md received a harsh penalty because they were not proactive in addressing the problems and did not take the charges seriously at an administrative level. I can't remember if the two strikes rule for the death penalty was in effect then (Md would not have qualified under this) but there were two members from the ACC on the infractions committee who never would have voted to shut the program down (for their own economic reasons). There was also political support on the committee for Slaughter (read into that what you will). It was the administrations fault for the severe penalties Md received.

[BaltimoreTerp]

Weem,

Md was hit for lack of institutional control. It wasn't the individual action or actions themselves, it was lack of accountability in the basketball department and the athletic department. Md received a harsh penalty because they were not proactive in addressing the problems and did not take the charges seriously at an administrative level. I can't remember if the two strikes rule for the death penalty was in effect then (Md would not have qualified under this) but there were two members from the ACC on the infractions committee who never would have voted to shut the program down (for their own economic reasons). There was also political support on the committee for Slaughter (read into that what you will). It was the administrations fault for the severe penalties Md received.

They then hired Gary without telling him how severe the punishments would be, and essentially left him with nothing.

[weemnj]

They then hired Gary without telling him how severe the punishments would be, and essentially left him with nothing.

YEP and to use my favorite word from Lefty's legacy---AMEN to this analysis.

[accinfo]

They then hired Gary without telling him how severe the punishments would be, and essentially left him with nothing.

Leaving him with nothing? Man the myth sounds better then the truth. Gary's first team had Tony Massenburg, Walt Williams, Jerod Mustaf, Cedric Lewis all who played in the NBA. They went 6-8 in the ACC.

The next team had Walt Williams, Cedric Lewis. and Evers Burns again all who played in the NBA. Maybe not for long but that is more NBA players then are on the team right now. This "myth" that Gary's program had nothing after NCAA sanctions is just false.

Kentucky had no more sanctions then Maryland yet Rick Pitino won his share of games and shortly returned them to the top of college basketball.

[Eight]

You're absolutely right, the talent was so overwhelming on that first team that the same group had gone 9-20 the year before including a 1-13 record in the ACC that was good for dead last in the league. And how did the next year's team do so poorly with Walt Williams playing half of a season and the immortal Matt Roe and Garfield Smith leading the way. That lineup is nearly as good as the Christian Laettner Duke teams of the day!

[Lucky Jim]

You're absolutely right, the talent was so overwhelming on that first team that the same group had gone 9-20 the year before including a 1-13 record in the ACC that was good for dead last in the league. And how did the next year's team do so poorly with Walt Williams playing half of a season and the immortal Matt Roe and Garfield Smith leading the way. That lineup is nearly as good as the Christian Laettner Duke teams of the day!

Yeah. That's one of the more absurd posts I've seen on here. Not to mention the effect of the penalties on recruiting (which was much more important than who was in pocket when Gary showed up on campus.)

[inmn]

I don't have a dog in this fight but this argument is ridiculous.

It is a fact that GW's first team was talented, even by ACC standards.

That roster put more players in the pros than any other ACC team other than UNC. Massenburg, Williams, and Mustaf were very, very good players (#7 and I believe #14 in the draft). After that it fell off as recruiting was affected by the penalties. If you want to argue that he was affected in the second year or subsequent years OK but not the first year.

Wade didn't exactly set the bar too high with his coaching. The 87-88 team included Archer, Dickerson, Gatlin, Hood, Johnson, Lewis, Lewis, Massenburg and a FR Brian Williams. What would GW have done with that team??

absurd post=respect???

[Eight]

National Runner Up Duke (Christian Laettner, Alaa Abdelnaby, Bobby Hurley, Phil Henderson, Thomas Hill, Brian Davis) might have something to say about that. And the GT team that went to the FF (Kenny Anderson, Brian Oliver, Dennis Scott, Malcolm Mackey).

[inmn]

8,

Not sure what you are saying here. Your original point was that GW inherited no talent -you have been proven wrong so now in typical fashion you pick another argument. Like I said I see no point to this but you and others attacking anyone who criticizes GW is simply wrong, and in this case factually wrong. Md finished 19-14 and 6-8 against some very talented teams (as you point out) which seems to me to help make ACCinfo's case. If you want to fast forward a few years I would agree with you but that was not the point of your post.

If your point related to players off those teams in the pros please do your homework before posting. Again as ACCInfo stated Md had 4 players off that roster in the pros; as for Duke Hill and Henderson while drafted never played in the NBA, Davis played a total of 68 games. For GT Mackey played in 22 games and Oliver 118. If you want to get technical Duke and Md each had 3 solid pros (counting Alaa) Tech had two.

Either way the point was that the team GW inherited in 89-90 was talented and I think a reasonable person would agree.

[Lucky Jim]

I don't have a dog in this fight but this argument is ridiculous.

It is a fact that GW's first team was talented, even by ACC standards.

That roster put more players in the pros than any other ACC team other than UNC. Massenburg, Williams, and Mustaf were very, very good players (#7 and I believe #14 in the draft). After that it fell off as recruiting was affected by the penalties. If you want to argue that he was affected in the second year or subsequent years OK but not the first year.

Wade didn't exactly set the bar too high with his coaching. The 87-88 team included Archer, Dickerson, Gatlin, Hood, Johnson, Lewis, Lewis, Massenburg and a FR Brian Williams. What would GW have done with that team??

absurd post=respect???

You're right - Massenburg was fully developed, and Mustaf was as developed as he was going to get. I was thinking of Cedric Lewis when I made that comment, who was mentioned earlier in the thread.

That said, what's the overall point of this argument? So Williams had talent for one year before sanctions decimated the program. He won 19 games that year with a team that won 9 the year before. The cupboard wasn't completely bare, no. But it got there quickly.

So your argument is that - for one bright shining year - Gary had talent and so all of us who think the Maryland program was in shambles are wrong? I don't see it.

As for your other comment - I'm sorry...when did I make any proclamations about how talented this team is?

[inmn]

Seriously? You're still harping on this point. "Absurd post" is a criticism of a post. That's it.

The post refuses to take into account - regardless of the talent level of that first team - the huge impact that the sanctions had on recruiting, which means that GW - even if he had talent - did not have a replenishible resource of it.

Further, just saying they had "talent" doesn't take into account just where along the career trajectory each of these guys was. Ending up an NBA player doesn't mean they were ready to be solid contributors when Williams showed up.

Heck, there's an enormous logical flaw in the point: that they ended up NBA players could just as likely be the result of GW's development as a sign that the team was inherently talented.

Do a little homework, they were all very good players (averaging in double figures the next year). Here's a flaw in your logic: both Mustaf and Williams were Parade AA's (Mustaf 3X) and Massenburg was already an established player averaging 16.6/7.8 under Wade. Did GW help-sure but any reasonable person would say they were talented players heading into GW's first year.

The team was comparable to this year's team in wins against a much better ACC-both you and 8 thought this was a talented team so what's the difference?

What Wade left him was what he left him, ACCinfo's post refers to the team that was left to him not the sanctions. Further GW has often stated he did not do his due diligence before taking the job. Again the issue was with lack of institutional control (Slaughter, Kirwan, Dull) more so than Wade. I am not a big Wade fan but the NCAA's point was that he received absolutely no support-likely why Dull has spent the rest of his career at D2 and D3 schools. Beyond that (noting Terp's post) how could Md possibly tell him how serious the sanctions were when they did not know and did not take them seriously.

GW still had scholarships to offer but the classes that followed were horrible (Kjome, McGlone, Smith and Thibeault) to replace Mustaf and Massenburg then (Bristol, Rainge, Schultz, Soto, and Walsh). We will have to assume these classes were due to the penalties. I'm not arguing that the penalties didn't hurt him but I don't agree that he was left without talent.