Roch: Rick Adair Talks About Jake

[weams]

Right. I meant this particular stretch (in Jake's case, the last 20 games.....which is a lot).

Jeff Ballard was smoking for a while.

[JR Oriole]

Jeff Ballard was smoking for a while.

Ha!! Yes. In the same way that Dave Johnson was portrayed in the WHY NOT? video as if he was Cy Young...even though he actually finished 4-7 in 1989.

[MrOrange82]

And you know that if the Orioles had acquired two pitchers with Strop's and Arrieta's resume and touted them as the next ace and the next closer you'd accuse them of being on industrial strength hallucinogens.

Almost certainly. But I don't/didn't work for the Cubs' front office, and the argument to which I responded is/was that the Cubs didn't regard Arrieta very highly at the time of the trade (thus, they got lucky/stumbled into a great pitcher).

[DrungoHazewood]

Jeff Ballard was smoking for a while.

In 35 innings in July of 2001 Randy Johnson struck out 62 batters. Jeff Ballard had 62 strikeouts in 1989.

[mdbdotcom]

In 35 innings in July of 2001 Randy Johnson struck out 62 batters. Jeff Ballard had 62 strikeouts in 1989.

He didn't say what Jeff Ballard was smoking.

[OsEatAlEast]

Okay, but then the point is what? "It's not THAT bad. He wouldn't be the best pitcher in the game in the AL -- maybe just a top ten arm in the league."

Yeah I kind of derailed the thread a little bit. I went from Arrieta to talking about trading for NL talent.

But, I think this could be a very good thing for us as O's fans. The O's look really bad for what Arrieta is doing. Now questions have to be asked and they have some real soul searching to do. But we have to hold them to it and keep asking the question. "How do these guys go to different organizations and suddenly get it?" That's why I'm not getting so flustered about it. Never let a good crisis go to waste.

[Frobby]

Obviously, I wish that his last two years with the Orioles weren't with Rick Adair as his pitching coach. Adair seems to be a big piece of this puzzle for all the wrong reasons. Frobby pointed this out when Adair left and I honestly thought all the concern about him was a bit overblown. Two years later when a lot more information has surfaced, I know longer feel that way. I don't know what was up with Adair personally, but he clearly didn't do the Orioles any favors. His two years as pitching coach coincided with our record getting a lot better but there are simply too many things coming out to believe that he was part of the solution. It makes you wonder what guys like Matusz, Arrieta, and Britton could have been if Wallace or Kranitz were the PC during those formative times.

This is what I believe, though I'm not really competent to judge it. The O's spent too much time in the Connor/Adair years forcing pitchers to get away from what had worked for them in the past. I honestly believe that if Wallace and Chiti had been here, Jake would be a successful starting pitcher here right now. There's no way to prove that, of course.

We really have squandered a decent amount of pitching talent over the last 8 years or so, by poor development and trades where we ended up with the short end of the stick. It's very frustrating, because those are the exact things we cannot afford to do.

[Frobby]

While I questioned Adair at the time, I feel its way overboard in the other direction to say Arrieta, Matusz, etc. may have been successes with Wallace. Tillman, Norris, and Gonzalez all regressed this year. Ramon Martinez helped Jimenez when Wallace couldn't. Gausman made minimal progress. Mike Wright started very good and then was awful. Wallace did a great job last year or maybe he was just at the right place at the right time.

We'll never know. However, Wallace did make it really clear when he joined the Orioles that his approach was to listen to the pitchers and then try to help them, rather than dictating to them. Many of our pitchers commented on that. And that's basically what happened with Arrieta once he went to Chicago; he was allowed to do what felt comfortable to him. Connor and Adair never let him do that.

[Going Underground]

We'll never know. However, Wallace did make it really clear when he joined the Orioles that his approach was to listen to the pitchers and then try to help them, rather than dictating to them. Many of our pitchers commented on that. And that's basically what happened with Arrieta once he went to Chicago; he was allowed to do what felt comfortable to him. Connor and Adair never let him do that.

I know Wallace was a godsend last year.This year ever starting

pitcher except Chen regressed. Probably not his fault but nothing to hang your hat on.

[weams]

While I questioned Adair at the time, I feel its way overboard in the other direction to say Arrieta, Matusz, etc. may have been successes with Wallace. Tillman, Norris, and Gonzalez all regressed this year. Ramon Martinez helped Jimenez when Wallace couldn't. Gausman made minimal progress. Mike Wright started very good and then was awful. Wallace did a great job last year or maybe he was just at the right place at the right time.

I would have liked it if we had just kept Rick Kranitz.

[Il BuonO]

Are you saying that Adair forced changes on Arrieta? It depends on your perspective I guess. You don't think Wallace had some strong suggestions for Ubaldo last year?

They did. This has been discussed. He had always thrown across his body and the Orioles wanted him to stop. A crossfire delivery does make arms more susceptible to injury because of the stress so it's understandable, but not at the expense of changing the pitcher to the point of failure. Guys have to understand the risks.

If you look at video from his time with the Orioles compared to now this is easily distinguishable. He's stepping towards 3rd base now across his body which changes his arm slot and the position of his hips on follow through.

[Prayin4Reign]

Jake had MANY opportunities with us. We were in a pennant race when we traded him and he sucked and was out of options, we had to trade him, he was hurting the team.

Sometimes a dose of reality (getting traded) can do wonders for you.

Be happy for him. Life is too short to stress about a pitcher we traded 2 years ago.

My thoughts exactly. But we aren't passionate sports fans with a sentiment like that. Haha.

BTW...Orioles fan since 1966.

[Prayin4Reign]

I hope the Cubs get to the World Series. I am not against Jake at all.

I doubt many people are.

[brianod]

If I hear one more time that Jake just needed a change of scenery, I'm going to throw up in my mouth. That is an ignorant, short sighted excuse. The mound at Camden yards is 60 feet 6 inches from the plate. Just like Wrigley, fancy that! The change of scenery BS absolves the Orioles from their total failure to develop and have patience with the best pitcher in baseball. I would suggest everyone stops making excuses and owns up to the fact that this organization made one of the biggest blunders of all time. If we don't own up to it, we are doomed to repeat it. Lessons learned and all that.

[Moose Milligan]

As someone already mentioned, Bautista spent years as a mediocre player before putting it together in a way that you rarely see. He went through multiple teams and God only knows how many coaches between his brief stop in Baltimore and eventual success. There are plenty of legitimate reasons to gig the Orioles, but Bautista isn't one of them.

Agree. I don't actually think the Bautista situation is even comparable. Arrieta was in Baltimore only, actually got worse every year, went to the Cubs, immediately pitched better than in any year in Baltimore, and then proceeded to get better each year to the point that he is now the most dominant pitcher any of us have EVER seen for this long a stretch. 1999-2000 Pedro wasn't this good. Neither was 1992-1995 Maddux.

I think you guys missed the point completely.