Roch: Rick Adair Talks About Jake

[DrungoHazewood]

I remember the Glenn Davis trade well. Contrary to the inaccurate descriptions above, Glenn Davis was not a washed up veteran when we traded for him. He was 29 years old, having hit 31, 27, 30 and 34 homeruns in the astrodome and averaged over 90 rbis in those years. He was in his prime. The theory was that if he hit 30 in the dome, he should hit 40 at Camden Yards. The trade falls into the typical dynamic of trading valuable prospects for a proven veteran in him prime. Davis's career didn't end because of age, it ended due to a career ending shoulder problem. Very unfortunate as I do believe had he stayed healthy, he would have put up monster numbers at Camden yards.

So, in some ways, the Arietta trade was worse. We knew we weren't getting much back. We knew that Jake had great stuff. We simply made the judgment that he would never succeed. I agree that he wasn't pitching well enough to warrant sending him out as a starter but we could have sent him to Norfolk for a few months. We didn't have to give up on him. So we traded a younger pitcher with great stuff for a 2 month rental with average stuff. Our guy was younger. Doesn't that ring alarm bells all over the place? If not, it should.

A lot of guys are saying we had no other choice given his performance. But, that wasn't true. The other choice was Norfolk or long relief. Make no mistake, this was an organizational failure. The Orioles should acknowledge it, learn from it and move on. Those of you not recognizing that and saying we had no other choice or that Jake just needed a change of scenery are delusional.

Why do I get a feeling that your opinion of other trades is heavily influenced by your desire to eviscerate the current front office? You'd probably find a way to show that young Christy Mathewson for nearly retired Amos Rusie was nothin' compared to the level of stupidity displayed by Dan Duquette.

[webbrick2010]

I remember the Glenn Davis trade well. Contrary to the inaccurate descriptions above, Glenn Davis was not a washed up veteran when we traded for him. He was 29 years old, having hit 31, 27, 30 and 34 homeruns in the astrodome and averaged over 90 rbis in those years. He was in his prime. The theory was that if he hit 30 in the dome, he should hit 40 at Camden Yards. The trade falls into the typical dynamic of trading valuable prospects for a proven veteran in him prime. Davis's career didn't end because of age, it ended due to a career ending shoulder problem. Very unfortunate as I do believe had he stayed healthy, he would have put up monster numbers at Camden yards.

So, in some ways, the Arietta trade was worse. We knew we weren't getting much back. We knew that Jake had great stuff. We simply made the judgment that he would never succeed. I agree that he wasn't pitching well enough to warrant sending him out as a starter but we could have sent him to Norfolk for a few months. We didn't have to give up on him. So we traded a younger pitcher with great stuff for a 2 month rental with average stuff. Our guy was younger. Doesn't that ring alarm bells all over the place? If not, it should.

A lot of guys are saying we had no other choice given his performance. But, that wasn't true. The other choice was Norfolk or long relief. Make no mistake, this was an organizational failure. The Orioles should acknowledge it, learn from it and move on. Those of you not recognizing that and saying we had no other choice or that Jake just needed a change of scenery are delusional.

Perhaps your memory is a little fuzzy.

First the O's were still in Memorial Stadium for the first year of Glenn Davis's tenure not Camden Yards

Second the O's traded him after he only played 93 games the season before, missing almost 2 months with the same mysterious ailment that eventually ended his career.

It was a horrible trade and most people knew it the second it was announced

[OsEatAlEast]

Perhaps your memory is a little fuzzy.

First the O's were still in Memorial Stadium for the first year of Glenn Davis's tenure not Camden Yards

Second the O's traded him after he only played 93 games the season before, missing almost 2 months with the same mysterious ailment that eventually ended his career.

It was a horrible trade and most people knew it the second it was announced

I remember being a 15yr old kid at the time and thinking. "Man, I hope they know what they're doing!"

Most of that thought had to do with Pete Harnisch. Who ended up being the least of the trade.

[Can_of_corn]

I remember being a 15yr old kid at the time and thinking. "Man, I hope they know what they're doing!"

I remember thinking "We traded a lot to replace Eddie Murray".

[OsEatAlEast]

I remember thinking "We traded a lot to replace Eddie Murray".

The trade that kept on giving.

[weams]

This is totally not as big a blunder as getting into a land war in Asia. Maybe not even as bad as going in against a Sicilian when death is on the line.

I spent the last few years building up an immunity to iocane powder.

[OsEatAlEast]

I spent the last few years building up an immunity to iocane powder.

I always knew you were tough! Are you planning a test of wits with any megalomaniacs in the near future?

[brianod]

Why do I get a feeling that your opinion of other trades is heavily influenced by your desire to eviscerate the current front office? You'd probably find a way to show that young Christy Mathewson for nearly retired Amos Rusie was nothin' compared to the level of stupidity displayed by Dan Duquette.

I take no joy in stating the truth when the truth is that this organization made a colossal mistake. The reason I'm so vehement about it is that it angers me to see so many apologists without a clue. The trade points out organizational weaknesses that we should learn from. Pushing it under the rug and shrugging shoulders in totally lame and unacceptable to me. If DD wants to be here, I'm happy with him returning. I love Buck. I don't demand perfection but I'm not a shill. I care about this franchise and have been a season ticket holder for over 20 years. I believe that gives me the right to demand better from management then the Arietta trade.

[brianod]

Perhaps your memory is a little fuzzy.

First the O's were still in Memorial Stadium for the first year of Glenn Davis's tenure not Camden Yards

Second the O's traded him after he only played 93 games the season before, missing almost 2 months with the same mysterious ailment that eventually ended his career.

It was a horrible trade and most people knew it the second it was announced

My point wasn't that it was a good trade. My point is that I can see the reasoning behind it. Many have portrayed it as a trade for a washed up veteran and that is totally inaccurate. Perhaps all the medical evaluations of free agents/trade targets stems for the fact that Davis was hurt when we traded for him? If so, that is a proper response to an organizational mistake. I'm simply saying that we acknowledge and learn from the Arietta failure, not sweep it under the rug.

[flyhighbirds]

I take no joy in stating the truth when the truth is that this organization made a colossal mistake. The reason I'm so vehement about it is that it angers me to see so many apologists without a clue. The trade points out organizational weaknesses that we should learn from. Pushing it under the rug and shrugging shoulders in totally lame and unacceptable to me. If DD wants to be here, I'm happy with him returning. I love Buck. I don't demand perfection but I'm not a shill. I care about this franchise and have been a season ticket holder for over 20 years. I believe that gives me the right to demand better from management then the Arietta trade.

You are exactly right, and I am glad to hear somebody stand up and say this. It was an absolutely horrendous trade by Duke, and the incriminating evidence is right there where Adair says that Arrietta was as talented as any pitcher in baseball.

[Number5]

I spent the last few years building up an immunity to iocane powder.

Inconceivable!!

[Barnaby Graves]

I don't see the Arrieta debacle as a trade failure. I still have no problem with the trade. Whether the guy was talented, whether he still had options, doesn't matter to me. The Orioles were not going to make a star out of him. They have no idea how to develop young starting pitching. They just do not do a good job of it. They screwed Arrieta up. He looked terrible in every aspect of his pitching and most people here really hated him. If you forgot the vitriol in the Game Threads, I didn't. Most people wanted him shipped out.

He goes to the Cubs and puts everything together in an incredibly short window of time, starts pitching how he wants to pitch AND IT WORKS FOR HIM. The Orioles would never let him do that. The TTTP, taking guys' pitches away, making them do things they are uncomfortable with, etc. The organization has its head up its own ass a bit with the "Oriole Way" thing, because it engenders this idea that "you are the clay, we are the mold, and you'll take the shape we want." I guess that'll work in some respects but I think when it comes up against the fine mechanical and psychological aspects of pitching, it is a mistake to make people conform to things they just can't do.

Given that they have blown it with young pitchers over and over again for well over a decade now, I think it actually justifies the Feldman trade and other prospects-for-proven talent trades they could make when they are on the cusp of winning, like they were in 2013.

[El Gordo]

I don't see the Arrieta debacle as a trade failure. I still have no problem with the trade. Whether the guy was talented, whether he still had options, doesn't matter to me. The Orioles were not going to make a star out of him. They have no idea how to develop young starting pitching. They just do not do a good job of it. They screwed Arrieta up. He looked terrible in every aspect of his pitching and most people here really hated him. If you forgot the vitriol in the Game Threads, I didn't. Most people wanted him shipped out.

He goes to the Cubs and puts everything together in an incredibly short window of time, starts pitching how he wants to pitch AND IT WORKS FOR HIM. The Orioles would never let him do that. The TTTP, taking guys' pitches away, making them do things they are uncomfortable with, etc. The organization has its head up its own ass a bit with the "Oriole Way" thing, because it engenders this idea that "you are the clay, we are the mold, and you'll take the shape we want." I guess that'll work in some respects but I think when it comes up against the fine mechanical and psychological aspects of pitching, it is a mistake to make people conform to things they just can't do.

Given that they have blown it with young pitchers over and over again for well over a decade now, I think it actually justifies the Feldman trade and other prospects-for-proven talent trades they could make when they are on the cusp of winning, like they were in 2013.

Hate to agree with you but I do. Too many cooks, and Jake wasn't the only victim.

[flyhighbirds]

I don't see the Arrieta debacle as a trade failure. I still have no problem with the trade. Whether the guy was talented, whether he still had options, doesn't matter to me. The Orioles were not going to make a star out of him. They have no idea how to develop young starting pitching. They just do not do a good job of it. They screwed Arrieta up. He looked terrible in every aspect of his pitching and most people here really hated him. If you forgot the vitriol in the Game Threads, I didn't. Most people wanted him shipped out.

He goes to the Cubs and puts everything together in an incredibly short window of time, starts pitching how he wants to pitch AND IT WORKS FOR HIM. The Orioles would never let him do that. The TTTP, taking guys' pitches away, making them do things they are uncomfortable with, etc. The organization has its head up its own ass a bit with the "Oriole Way" thing, because it engenders this idea that "you are the clay, we are the mold, and you'll take the shape we want." I guess that'll work in some respects but I think when it comes up against the fine mechanical and psychological aspects of pitching, it is a mistake to make people conform to things they just can't do.

Given that they have blown it with young pitchers over and over again for well over a decade now, I think it actually justifies the Feldman trade and other prospects-for-proven talent trades they could make when they are on the cusp of winning, like they were in 2013.[/quote

Who is to say what would have happened if he stayed. He just kept experimenting with stuff and it finally clicked for

him. That is why you don't give up on guys like him no matter how incompetent you are. And the Cubs are the worst organization in sports history.

[Barnaby Graves]

Who is to say what would have happened if he stayed. He just kept experimenting with stuff and it finally clicked for

him.

Seems he was not allowed to experiment his way while he was here. So that's why I say it wasn't going to happen. Now he throws across his body, now he throws a pronounced cutter. PitchFX, reading his pitches, says he throws a cutter an enormous amount of the time while with the Orioles he basically never threw it.

That is why you don't give up on guys like him no matter how incompetent you are.

All we would have done is wasted his talent.

And the Cubs are the worst organization in sports history.

We're not talking about sports history. We're talking about 2015, when a guy we brought to the brink of ruination is now one of the best pitchers in baseball, especially over the last half of the year. History is over, by definition. What about the future? What are we going to do to stop blowing our chances with young pitching talent?