At What Point, Do You Hold DD Accountable, If Any?

[TouchemAll]

Last offseason was putrid (most of us realize why).

This offseason is NOT over.

However, let's discuss how you feel as a fan if little else is done. Would you be happy? Disappointed? Apathetic? What would make you be critical of DD? Would you like to see his contract extended? What say you?

No point in being critical of DD since ultimately his hands are tied by the owner?

Davis has this team tied in knots with the it's Davis or no one philosophy. JMHO

[DrungoHazewood]

LOL where to begin, I will only make 2 points.

-Davies, Jake Arrieta, Eduardo Rodriguez, Josh Hader, Stephen Tarpley, Steve Brault and Tim Berry = All pitching prospects, all traded for players no longer in the organization, and he has the guts to say he can't believe how expensive pitching is. Although they all have different circumstances, the end result is undeniable.

-The entire off-season of 2015. Not only was the AL East winning team worse then the year before on paper, it showed it on the field. There is NO WORLD in which a good GM would have accepted the outfield he put together for 2015. People will argue he didn't have the money. There were plenty of changes he could have made to recoup some money to afford better than the AAAA's he brought in.

Examples; How about him offering arbitration to EVERYONE, including Hunter who got 5.5 million to pitch the 7th inning? How about trading a starter that was making 8 or 9 million dollars, when you have a young up coming starter, who happen to win a playoff game in 2014, in your bull pen. The 2015 Orioles should have been LOADED for a world series run and if he couldn't get the money from Angelos, then HE needed to make the necessary adjustments to make it happen.

The job Duquette has done has been below average at best and I for one wish he would have moved on to Toronto.

There's a lot of exaggeration here. The OF comment is both over-the-top and 20/20 hindsight.

[DrungoHazewood]

The job Duquette has done has been below average at best and I for one wish he would have moved on to Toronto.

Also, you really believe that pretty much any GM with a halfway decent MLB track record and pulse would have taken over the 2011 Orioles and gotten more than two playoff appearances and better than the most wins in the AL East over that period? Maybe someone less incompetent would have managed 3-4 division titles and built a good farm system on the foundation of 14 straight losing seasons?

[Frobby]

I agree. The Marlins are clearly not a class run organization and have five plus years of losing. That said, looking at the last two years they have accomplished things that the Orioles should be able to do if they want to stay competitive despite having bad ownership.

What have the Marlins accomplished in the last two years? They signed Stanton to a big extension that is very backloaded and we'll see if they keep him when his salary goes from $14.5 mm in 2017 to $25 mm in 2018. They just signed Chen to a backloaded deal with an opt out. Even with those two moves, their payroll will be $40-50 mm below the Orioles' this year. What else have they done of note?

Even if you think the Stanton contract was a good accomplishment, that's something they did only after he had 4+ years of service time. The equivalent for Manny would be to extend him next offseason (though of course I'd like to see it happen now).

[OFFNY]

From an organization that had zero winning seasons in the 14 years prior to his arrival. I know it's popular to talk about accountability and not accepting failure and expecting excellence and this stuff, but sports is a zero-sum game. But we're fans who have little or no influence over how the team is run, so us holding Duquette or Angelos accountable is a fiction, it's a conceit. Also, in every year the wins and losses in a league have to equal each other. Half the teams, give or take, are going to have a losing record each and every year. But fans always expect not only wins, but wins the right way that set up more wins in the future.

If you'd asked the Hangout in 2008 what they thought of a future that played out as 2012-2015 did I'd guess 30% of the board would have donated a kidney to science to get to that reality. Now that we're actually there it's a firing offense.

Look, I'm not thrilled about everything, and occasionally confused and perplexed by decisions. But I try to not let pursuit of the ideal stand in the way of enjoying the pretty good. I saw 1985-88 and 1998-2011, I know what bad baseball from a lost organization looks like. It ain't four winning seasons in four years.

I've always wondered about that when I hear/have heard fans make statements such as, "Losing is not acceptable for this team/franchise. We fans demand a winner here!"

Well, if losing is not acceptable HERE, then what team/franchise's fans SHOULD accept losing?

Until MLB, the NFL, the NBA, and the NHL find a touring Washington Generals team (and count the wins over the Generals teams in the league standings) for their respective leagues, then major professional sports (as you stated) will indeed continue to be a zero sum game, and losing seasons will have to occur somewhere for some teams and their fan bases.

[DrungoHazewood]

What have the Marlins accomplished in the last two years? They signed Stanton to a big extension that is very backloaded and we'll see if they keep him when his salary goes from $14.5 mm in 2017 to $25 mm in 2018. They just signed Chen to a backloaded deal with an opt out. Even with those two moves, their payroll will be $40-50 mm below the Orioles' this year. What else have they done of note?

Even if you think the Stanton contract was a good accomplishment, that's something they did only after he had 4+ years of service time. The equivalent for Manny would be to extend him next offseason (though of course I'd like to see it happen now).

They did manage to execute several salary-dump trades of good/popular players months after opening a new taxpayer-funded stadium guaranteed to allow them a substantial payroll hike. There is that.

[DrungoHazewood]

I've always wondered about that when I hear/have heard fans make statements such as, "Losing is not acceptable for this team/franchise. We fans demand a winner here!"

Well, if losing is not acceptable HERE, then what team/franchise's fans SHOULD accept losing?

Until MLB, the NFL, the NBA, and the NHL find a touring Washington Generals team (and count the wins over the Generals teams in the league standings) for their respective leagues, then major professional sports (as you stated) will indeed continue to be a zero sum game, and losing seasons will have to occur somewhere for some teams and their fan bases.

People in [insert our locality here] are superior to the lesser fans in [insert city over thataway here]. Isn't it obvious?

[Rene88]

It's my opinion that, like past GMs, Dan is simply doing what he can within the considerable constraints of the job. And he's done a fairly good job.

Outside of this organization, Dan has been able to do a good bit more (see Red Sox).

I agree with this assessment.

It is also fair to note that he traded Jake A for Scott Feldman. He also traded from a weak farm system for Parra when we clearly weren't strong enough to contend. The latter may not be a huge move per se, but made me question his assessment skills.

I think he has done a good job with what are huge constraints. Working in the FO for the Orioles can make accurate job evaluations difficult.

I enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts, thanks for posting.

[DrungoHazewood]

He also traded from a weak farm system for Parra when we clearly weren't strong enough to contend. The latter may not be a huge move per se, but made me question his assessment skills.

I don't think that word means what you think it means. The Orioles were, what, a game out of the wildcard when Parra was acquired? And while Parra shouldn't have been expected to continue to hit .328 it probably reasonable to think that the delta between his expected average-ish performance and the poor players in the outfield corners could make up the wildcard gap. I think "clearly not strong enough" is a combination of in-season pessimism and after-the-fact rationalization.

[Tx Oriole]

Last offseason was putrid (most of us realize why).

This offseason is NOT over.

However, let's discuss how you feel as a fan if little else is done. Would you be happy? Disappointed? Apathetic? What would make you be critical of DD? Would you like to see his contract extended? What say you?

No point in being critical of DD since ultimately his hands are tied by the owner?

I don't. It's the owner that's pulling the strings. Angelos wanted to give CD 154

million. Since Davis has turned that down why not use that money on other areas

to improve the team? A smart owner would improve the team. DD's hands are

tied. IMO

[Frobby]

If you'd asked the Hangout in 2008 what they thought of a future that played out as 2012-2015 did I'd guess 30% of the board would have donated a kidney to science to get to that reality.

You can count me in that group! Still, I think we could have achieved the same results without donating Eduardo Rodriguez, Zach Davies and (in hindsight) Jake Arrieta. And I'd like our future a lot better. I might be willing to donate a kidney now to get those three pitchers back.

[DrungoHazewood]

You can count me in that group! Still, I think we could have achieved the same results without donating Eduardo Rodriguez, Zach Davies and (in hindsight) Jake Arrieta. And I'd like our future a lot better. I might be willing to donate a kidney now to get those three pitchers back.

Messing with the time-space continuum is tricky business. Didn't you ever read the The Monkey's Paw? Or watch Bill and Ted? You think a Jake Arrieta Cy Young for the Cubs is bad, just wait till you jump into that TARDIS, kidney-less, and all hell breaks loose.

[Ruzious]

You can count me in that group! Still, I think we could have achieved the same results without donating Eduardo Rodriguez, Zach Davies and (in hindsight) Jake Arrieta. And I'd like our future a lot better. I might be willing to donate a kidney now to get those three pitchers back.

I'm starting to wonder how you're harvesting this supply of kidneys that you're so willing to donate.

[twinedenter]

There's a lot of exaggeration here. The OF comment is both over-the-top and 20/20 hindsight.

Seriously your calling the fact that I KNEW that the collection of bum's Duquette replaced Cruz and Markakis with weren't enough, HINDSIGHT?

IMO, even you knew it was a serious risk and a team on the cusp of a world series appearance, doesn't take such risks.

There is no excuse for Duquette's poor 2015 off-season.

[Creamsicle]

Odd question. As a fan I hold him accountable every day, and have since he was hired.