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Luis...........Ouch!!!!


Mike B

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Not many want to replace him with Cintron or Bynum. Many would prefer an option outside of the organization.

At what cost? What are you willing to give up in order to go outside the organization to improve the team in a year when we don't expect to contend? Hu, Nelson, and Andrus are the best options IMO. What do you think they would cost and can we afford that now.

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Not many want to replace him with Cintron or Bynum. Many would prefer an option outside of the organization.

Yeah sure, in a perfect world, but I'm reading a lot of people advocating change for changes sake on this forum tonight.

To paraphrase, plenty of "I expect Bynum to fail, but they should put him in there" & "Cintron won't be an improvement, but Luis has got to go."

It's one thing for fickle fans to feel that way, but I'd expect more from the FO when their committment to defense is actually paying divdends in terms of an overachieving club (to this point, anyway)

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At what cost? What are you willing to give up in order to go outside the organization to improve the team in a year when we don't expect to contend? Hu, Nelson, and Andrus are the best options IMO. What do you think they would cost and can we afford that now.

No one is saying go get a one year option that is what you are overlooking. The player we trade for should be a guy who can be a long term solution at shortstop. I'm not going to speculate on who that should be or what it would take to get them, but we should have some of the young pitching to make a move like that. If they want to stay in house until they evaluate which young pitchers to trade I'm fine with that.

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But if you upgrade the offense and team speed, who is to say you end up a worse team overall???

Come on SG, you know that in real baseball -as opposed to fantasy leagues- that a run prevented is worth more than a run scored.

Shuffling the lineup to get players in there that you and others are projecting to fail is not justification for weakening the defense IMO.

Bynum isn't lilely to get on base enough for his speed to improve the team significantly.

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Yeah sure, in a perfect world, but I'm reading a lot of people advocating change for changes sake on this forum tonight.

To paraphrase, plenty of "I expect Bynum to fail, but they should put him in there" & "Cintron won't be an improvement, but Luis has got to go."

Simply put, you never know until you try.

Hernandez has had his chance. He is failing.

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Come on SG, you know that in real baseball -as opposed to fantasy leagues- that a run prevented is worth more than a run scored.

Shuffling the lineup to get players in there that you and others are projecting to fail is not justification for weakening the defense IMO.

Bynum isn't lilely to get on base enough for his speed to improve the team significantly.

I know LH is your little pet but it is time to admit...HE IS PATHETIC!

Move on and admit you were wrong.

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I know LH is your little pet but it is time to admit...HE IS PATHETIC!

Move on and admit you were wrong.

How am I wrong for refuting everything you said in your previous post.

First you call him Trembley's pet. Now you call him my pet. If it were coming from anybody else, I might be flattered by the comparison.

As for the capital letters, as they say in Jamaica "Empty barrels make the most noise" ...or is it posts?

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No one is saying go get a one year option that is what you are overlooking. The player we trade for should be a guy who can be a long term solution at shortstop. I'm not going to speculate on who that should be or what it would take to get them, but we should have some of the young pitching to make a move like that. If they want to stay in house until they evaluate which young pitchers to trade I'm fine with that.
That's my point. That's why we must suffer LH and friends for now. We have to be sure about our young SP before we move one for a real SS.
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That's my point. That's why we must suffer LH and friends for now. We have to be sure about our young SP before we move one for a real SS.

But what happens when we "be sure" that one of our pitchers doesn't pan out? I don't want a John Maine to happen as much as anyone else, but the bottom line is no risk = no reward. There aren't going to be any good options available in FA most likely so we need to explore the trade option. The best thing to do is to trade some hot prospects who we may think have the least chance of panning out... before we know for sure and lose their value.

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But what happens when we "be sure" that one of our pitchers doesn't pan out? I don't want a John Maine to happen as much as anyone else, but the bottom line is no risk = no reward. There aren't going to be any good options available in FA most likely so we need to explore the trade option. The best thing to do is to trade some hot prospects who we may think have the least chance of panning out... before we know for sure and lose their value.

What's the hurry? Why risk a Maine mistake when we have the luxury of time to make a considered decision. I bet if you offerd Albers to the Rox for Nelson, e.g., they might go for it but are you ready to give him up? I'm not.

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What's the hurry? Why risk a Maine mistake when we have the luxury of time to make a considered decision. I bet if you offerd Albers to the Rox for Nelson, e.g., they might go for it but are you ready to give him up? I'm not.

I hear what you're saying, but the question you have to ask yourself is this: is finding a SS solution important enough to possibly give up a Maine? Or should we wait until we know what we have and possibly risk wasting a lot of value by some prospects not panning out.

The difference between Maine and now is that we have enough pitching prospects now where if we give up a Maine, we shouldn't have to wait a few years to replace him.

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I hear what you're saying, but the question you have to ask yourself is this: is finding a SS solution important enough to possibly give up a Maine? Or should we wait until we know what we have and possibly risk wasting a lot of value by some prospects not panning out.

The difference between Maine and now is that we have enough pitching prospects now where if we give up a Maine, we shouldn't have to wait a few years to replace him.[/QUOTE]

Pitching is very ephemoral. We don't really know what we have. Is Cabrera someone we should trade or keep. Albers? Gutherie? Olson? I would need to see them for most of the season before I would make that assesment. Nelson e.g. isn't going anywhere soon. If I decise I want him there's plenty of time to get him. We are building around pitching and I think that is the right idea. We have to be careful about what we give away. People are hysterically overreactung to the SS problem because they aren't patient enough to deal with the realities of rebuilding IMO.

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People are hysterically overreactung to the SS problem because they aren't patient enough to deal with the realities of rebuilding IMO.

No kidding.

I didn't watch today's game because I was in the car. However, my TIVO grabbed it. The OAK radio guys didn't make a big deal LH's "big fielding blunder", all they said was that the runner did a good job of taking out BRob. But after seeing all the hysteria around here, I couldn't imagine what kind of egregious fielding catastrophe I would see. I figured it must make Bucknor's gaffe look like nothing. I couldn't wait (in a fearful kind of way) to see what it was.

Imagine my surprise when I actually looked. It was your basic ground ball. He was at DP depth, and moved sideways to get in front of the ball. He didn't charge it because he had the runner crossing in front of him and if he had charged directly towards it, he would've been screened from the ball by the runner. So, he moved laterally to track the ball and he took it on a normal hop. All that was *fine*. Jeez, people, if you're gonna criticize him for something, at least criticize him for the right dang thing: BRob had to reach up for the ball. That reaching up is what interfered with BRob's rhythm for a perfectly normal leap-and-throw relay. That's the only thing that wasn't right, everything else was fine. I also looked to see the shots of DT and the other guys looking at him like they were steamed. Guess what? On the MASN feed, there were no such shots. None. Not a single one.

I've watched it 5 times, and I know exactly what most of the hysteria is about: While Thorne said exactly what the OAK radio guys said about the runner's good slide, stupid Buck followed that by emphatically saying something that's emphatically wrong *again*, just like he did the other day, getting people all worked up about something that didn't even happen. This time, right after the play, Buck said that LH "kinda went back and let the ball take him further away from the field"... then he repeated as he was narrating the replay: "you can see how Hernandez backed up". Which is completely wrong. You cannot see LH back up, because he did not back up. Given what was going on with the runner crossing in front of him, he did exactly the right thing: he kept the ball in view and fielded it cleanly after it went by the runner. The only thing that "went back" was when he moved his *left foot* back about a foot as he was fielding the ball... because he was doing 2 things correctly at the same time: fielding the ball while turning his body so he'd be in the right position to make the throw to 2B. Saying that LH backed up was just another flat-out-wrong thing coming out of Buck's mouth. Now, I suppose you could say that LH was suppose to charge the ball (and lose sight of the ball with the runner crossing right in front of him)... so he could then try to short-hop it while running towards the on deck circle (so he would then have to throw back against his momentum to get the force at 2B)... if you really believe that. Personally, I think you can criticize LH for his throw being high, and you can give credit to the runner. But the rest of this noise about his D on that play is a bunch of malarkey. You guys don't even know enough about what happened on that play to complain about the right thing. (I'm not gonna erase this game just yet, so if somebody has a question or observation about it, I can go back and look.)

Meanwhile, LH got on base 3 times out of 5 (as did Nick; only Millar got on 4 times). He kept the 8th-inning rally going with a 2-out hit, and he scored the go-ahead run. The guys in the dugout sure were happy to crowd around him after that. Yep, later on he did get picked off. No doubt about that. No excuse for it either. Meanwhile, for the year, his OBP is 32 points higher than AJ's, 36 higher than Payton's, and 70 points higher than Ramon's. Tell you what, let's hang him.

I swear to God, every time the team goes through a rough patch of losing a few games, people around start prowling around like an angry gang, looking for somebody to beat up for it. The fact of the matter is that lately the O's got no hitting and several guys failed to play perfectly, and they still damn near won each of the games. And the reason they still damn near won each of the games is because of the pitching-and-defense. That's a fact whether you like it or not. As for losing this game, there's lots of little reasons why. It was a team loss, just like most losses are But let's not worry about that, let's just look for a a little guy so we can take him out back and beat the crap out of him... right? To borrow a word from another poster, I think that is pathetic.

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What's the hurry? Why risk a Maine mistake when we have the luxury of time to make a considered decision. I bet if you offerd Albers to the Rox for Nelson, e.g., they might go for it but are you ready to give him up? I'm not.

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that it wouldn't have taken much to find a SS better than ours. Just because you don't go out and get a long term answer doesn't mean you can't fill the whole with a guy who belongs on a ML team. Instead, we have a no-hit, poor base-running, decent glove SS who showed up fat.

(And yes, I'd do Albers for Nelson.)

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