Luis...........Ouch!!!!

[NewMarketSean]

Hoping a guy doesn't fail isn't quite the same thing as looking at all of his accomplishments in a very positive light, and savagely ripping anyone who doesn't follow suit.

Saying anyone who doesn't think LH should be given a much longer rope is "hating on an Oriole kid" and that any analysis that says he shouldn't play is an "Animal House level of so-called baseball analysis", well, I'd call that savagely ripping.

It is possible to think that Luis Hernandez isn't good enough to play while simultaneously keeping your *Real* Oriole Fan credentials and maintaining a working knowledge of baseball analysis. And I don't know about you, but I don't hate Luis, in fact I hope the guy keeps giving his all and helps the O's win games. But I won't be delusional about it.

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving more to DrungoHazewood again."

[blueberryale77]

Right...No one on here thinks Cintron or Bynum are long term options..hell, they aren't even really short term options.

But they deserve at least a chance...LH got his and, predictably, he blew it.

Honestly, those guys deserve a chance at playing shortstop everyday in the major leagues right now about as much as Luis did when they called him up last year... not at all. I'd give Bynum a few chances just because he was pretty solid offensively for us last year and has by far the greatest natural athletic ability of the bunch, but I also think we need to look for more creative solutions.

At some point, you need to put the best 9 players on the field, even if that means not having one who can be called "a shortstop." I really think it's time to experiment with Mora at SS, Huff at 3B, Scott at DH and call up Luis Terrerro (sending down McCrory or Cormier) to split time with Payton in LF. Bynum gets activated with Torres going down. Bynum is your all purpose utility guy and gets some starts at short while Hernandez gets to stick around for awhile longer for the sole purpose of being a late game defensive replacement. I think that's the best we could hope for with current personnel. If Bynum keeps the booted balls to a minimum and hits a little, he can start more at SS. If Mora handles it reasonably well and Terrerro is getting hits, that option can be used more often.

[RShack]

Hoping a guy doesn't fail isn't quite the same thing as looking at all of his accomplishments in a very positive light, and savagely ripping anyone who doesn't follow suit.

Saying anyone who doesn't think LH should be given a much longer rope is "hating on an Oriole kid" and that any analysis that says he shouldn't play is an "Animal House level of so-called baseball analysis", well, I'd call that savagely ripping.

It is possible to think that Luis Hernandez isn't good enough to play while simultaneously keeping your *Real* Oriole Fan credentials and maintaining a working knowledge of baseball analysis. And I don't know about you, but I don't hate Luis, in fact I hope the guy keeps giving his all and helps the O's win games. But I won't be delusional about it.

I never said that LH doesn't deserve criticism.

If you think that major multi-page rants in multiple threads after yesterday's game, as if LH is why we have our first little losing streak, is "maintaining a working knowledge of -baseball analysis", well, I don't know what to say. This has not been primarily about "baseball analysis", it's largely (not completely, but largely) been a lynch mob.

[Gurgi]

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving more to DrungoHazewood again."

When people post this stuff it comes across as unseemly fawning. Why dont you just give rep and be quiet about it?

[NewMarketSean]

I never said that LH doesn't deserve criticism.

If you think that major multi-page rants in multiple threads after yesterday's game, as if LH is why we have our first little losing streak, is "maintaining a working knowledge of -baseball analysis", well, I don't know what to say. This has not been primarily about "baseball analysis", it's largely (not completely, but largely) been a lynch mob.

Seriously, what would you expect from fans when a team knowingly enters a season with a SS who couldn't hit at AA and whose defensive prowess was probably overblown in the first place? I know you pride yourself on being the Dali Lama when it comes to patience and the upside of bad players, but we all knew LH was no good when it all started. I can respect your optimism when it comes to the team and its players, but you can't blame fans for wanting him gone ASAP when the first arguably better option comes along.

[NewMarketSean]

When people post this stuff it comes across as unseemly fawning. Why dont you just give rep and be quiet about it?

Because I cant!!!

[McNulty]

At some point, you need to put the best 9 players on the field, even if that means not having one who can be called "a shortstop." I really think it's time to experiment with Mora at SS, Huff at 3B, Scott at DH and call up Luis Terrerro (sending down McCrory or Cormier) to split time with Payton in LF. Bynum gets activated with Torres going down. Bynum is your all purpose utility guy and gets some starts at short while Hernandez gets to stick around for awhile longer for the sole purpose of being a late game defensive replacement. I think that's the best we could hope for with current personnel. If Bynum keeps the booted balls to a minimum and hits a little, he can start more at SS. If Mora handles it reasonably well and Terrerro is getting hits, that option can be used more often.

I was on board for your plan three weeks ago.

http://forum.orioleshangout.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62125&highlight=mora+campaign

[blueberryale77]

I was on board for your plan three weeks ago.

http://forum.orioleshangout.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62125&highlight=mora+campaign

Yeah I know. I wasn't trying to claim credit. Three weeks ago, when we were winning, I wasn't ready for that radical of a measure yet. Now, I'm that desperate. We'd have to be prepared for the frustration of a TON of ground ball singles to the left side, but with Hernandez still not getting the job done offensively or defensively, I think the time has come to experiment with both Bynum and Mora at SS.

[Mackus]

I'm still not ready, and won't ever be ready, for a Mora at SS experiment. I think that would be a disaster. But, I am certainly ready for Cintron or Bynum. Hernandez' defense has clearly been less than the stellar level it needed to be to even come close to making up for his bat. He's probably been a touch above average, but he needed to be far better than that to have any chance of being a net positive. Or at least less of a net negative than Bynum or Cintron will be.

[RShack]

Seriously, what would you expect from fans when a team knowingly enters a season with a SS who couldn't hit at AA and whose defensive prowess was probably overblown in the first place? I know you pride yourself on being the Dali Lama when it comes to patience and the upside of bad players, but we all knew LH was no good when it all started. I can respect your optimism when it comes to the team and its players, but you can't blame fans for wanting him gone ASAP when the first arguably better option comes along.

Well, sorry, but I don't agree. Have I been disappointed about the mistakes he's made? Of course I have. But that doesn't mean that the predominant theme of the LH-bashing is correct. IMO, it's not.

I'm not sure whether you don't watch the games, or whether you watch them looking for different stuff than I do, but it's gotta be one or the other. On my TV, LH went through a bad phase at first. Whether it was choking, or a fielding slump, or a fat-boy phase, I don't know exactly, but it was there. Since then, he's played way better. On my TV, he's all over the place. He's out in LF and out in CF, he's backing up Mora in the hole, and cutting behind the bag at 2B. I have no news about +/- Plays, and I have no idea what that looks like. But I know what good SS-play looks like, and it doesn't look like web-gems, it looks boring. What I see is LH making a fair amount of hard plays look boring, and a whole lot of people laying in wait for a mistake so they can start a thread about it. I think it's fine and fair to criticize mistakes, but this is way beyond just criticizing mistakes.

I don't think the main thing is LH at all. I think the main thing is people having tantrums after the whole dang team has a dinky little 5-game losing streak, and they're prowling around looking for somebody to pin it on. Do I think LH should be let off the hook for mistakes? Nope. Do I think what we have here is primarily good "baseball analysis"? Nope. Some folks have perfectly good points to make criticizing LH, but a lot of this is just a bunch of angry folks being trite bullies who wanna kick somebody's ass and, like bullies always do, they pick on the little guy who's down.

I don't think you need to be the Dalai Lama to keep an itty-bitty losing streak in perspective. Especially if you were one of the people talking big about how 100 losses would be fine. Any team that loses 100 games is making mistakes left and right. So far, the O's are not such a team. So far, they're in every game, and the main reason is P-and-D. And people want Cintron and/or Bynum playing SS. That's funny (in a sad kind of way).

[Gurgi]

Yeah I know. I wasn't trying to claim credit. Three weeks ago, when we were winning, I wasn't ready for that radical of a measure yet. Now, I'm that desperate. We'd have to be prepared for the frustration of a TON of ground ball singles to the left side, but with Hernandez still not getting the job done offensively or defensively, I think the time has come to experiment with both Bynum and Mora at SS.

I have no problem with shifting some other in house guy into the role. I just dont want to trade a potential stud pitching prospect for a SS in a rebuild year. I just dont see the need.

[Mackus]

I have no problem with shifting some other in house guy into the role. I just dont want to trade a potential stud pitching prospect for a SS in a rebuild year. I just dont see the need.

Nobody on here wants to trade a stud pitching prospect for a stop gap SS.

What people would consider doing is dealing from a position of strength (SP spec depth) to fill a position of weakness (middle infield spec depth). If we could trade someone like Liz or Penn for someone like Hu or Donald, that could be a very good move. Obviously you'd rather deal someone like Walker or Bradford to get that young middle infielder, but that may not be possible. Or we may want to get more than one guy to get some depth there.

[DrungoHazewood]

I never said that LH doesn't deserve criticism.

If you think that major multi-page rants in multiple threads after yesterday's game, as if LH is why we have our first little losing streak, is "maintaining a working knowledge of -baseball analysis", well, I don't know what to say. This has not been primarily about "baseball analysis", it's largely (not completely, but largely) been a lynch mob.

You can call it whatever you want. But when a team plays well for a while, then slips below .500 the players who aren't playing well will get gigged. It's been that way for 150 years. Hernandez isn't the only one not playing well, but he is one of the least likely to improve by much. When most folks thought he was a bad choice in January, their opinions won't be swayed much by a month of inconsistent play that hasn't surpassed expectations in any way.

[blueberryale77]

I'm still not ready, and won't ever be ready, for a Mora at SS experiment. I think that would be a disaster. But, I am certainly ready for Cintron or Bynum. Hernandez' defense has clearly been less than the stellar level it needed to be to even come close to making up for his bat. He's probably been a touch above average, but he needed to be far better than that to have any chance of being a net positive. Or at least less of a net negative than Bynum or Cintron will be.

Mora has a far stronger arm than Cintron, probably similar range, and isn't particularly more prone to booting balls. Terrerro (in LF with Scott to DH and Huff to 3B) could probably add a good deal more to the offense than Cintron could, and would be a significant upgrade defensively over Scott. I certainly have some concerns about placing Mora and his extreme lack of baseball common sense at the "captain of the infield" position, but I have even more concerns about Cintron's arm and I think the offense would be significantly better with Terrerro in LF.

I can see good reason to give Bynum a chance first. He has better range than probably any of the other options and a strong enough arm to handle short. If he can avoid booting balls left and right and hit a little bit, he could be the best option. But if he does really struggle defensively I want to see what Mora can do.

[DrungoHazewood]

Do I think what we have here is primarily good "baseball analysis"? Nope. Some folks have perfectly good points to make criticizing LH, but a lot of this is just a bunch of angry folks being trite bullies who wanna kick somebody's ass and, like bullies always do, they pick on the little guy who's down.

And a lot of folks think that you're just angry that your guy isn't playing particularly well. Which he certainly isn't, in the context of the expected performance of a major league shortstop.

When you pick a player who's projected to be the worst hitter in major league baseball to live and die with you have to expect a fair amount of criticism. It seems that you didn't.