Face facts: Freddie Bynum is not the answer at SS

[Mackus]

I seem to recall that back around Opening Day, the few folks willing to defend Hernandez did so primarily on the grounds that his defense would be phenomenal.

How funny, then, that in the span of about 30 ballgames, Hernandez' defensive reputation has gone from stellar to not quite as good as Bynum, a guy that's never even been a SS. Ouch!

I don't think many people really think Hernandez' defense is worse than Bynum's, I certainly don't.

I do think that Hernandez' defense is far worse than the "stellar" label everybody was putting on it. Average or a bit above at best. Certainly not good enough to make up for the toothpick he swings at the plate. And also not good enough to make up for the offensive benefit that Bynum gives us. Its obvious that we are a better team at SS with Bynum there than with Hernandez.

To use a terribly stupid argument that OldFan likes to use, just look at the records. We are 5-1 with Bynum starting at SS, 16-18 with other starting SS. Isn't that all the evidence you really need?

[davearm]

I don't think many people really think Hernandez' defense is worse than Bynum's, I certainly don't.

I do think that Hernandez' defense is far worse than the "stellar" label everybody was putting on it. Average or a bit above at best. Certainly not good enough to make up for the toothpick he swings at the plate. And also not good enough to make up for the offensive benefit that Bynum gives us. Its obvious that we are a better team at SS with Bynum there than with Hernandez.

To use a terribly stupid argument that OldFan likes to use, just look at the records. We are 5-1 with Bynum starting at SS, 16-18 with other starting SS. Isn't that all the evidence you really need?

Fair enough. I was responding to the comments at post #23, I should've quoted it.

Regardless, "stellar" to "average" is still a precipitous fall.

Kinda gives you pause about a guy like Chin-lung Hu, though, doesn't it? Here's a guy who seems to be coveted primarily because of a glove that nobody here has probably ever seen him use. It'd sure suck to give away valuable trade chips only to find out the hype was unwarranted.

[Lucky Jim]

Fair enough. I was responding to the comments at post #23, I should've quoted it.

Regardless, "stellar" to "average" is still a precipitous fall.

Kinda gives you pause about a guy like Chin-lung Hu, though, doesn't it? Here's a guy who seems to be coveted primarily because of a glove that nobody here has probably ever seen him use. It'd sure suck to give away valuable trade chips only to find out the hype was unwarranted.

I don't think - to clarify again - that most folks here feel LH couldn't be an above average (or even well-above-average) SS...it's within his skill set. It may not be within his mental make-up.

His issues - in between hops, bad throws, mental lapses - are largely psychological/mental. Combined with the fact that he came to camp out of shape (which is inexcusable), and you've got a guy who, no matter how slick, theoretically, with the leather, isn't a ML SS right now. And he's got no wiggle room because he can't hit.

Just about everyone on this board knew that the margin for error with LH was tiny. The argument was only whether there was margin for error at all.

[Mackus]

Kinda gives you pause about a guy like Chin-lung Hu, though, doesn't it? Here's a guy who seems to be coveted primarily because of a glove that nobody here has probably ever seen him use. It'd sure suck to give away valuable trade chips only to find out the hype was unwarranted.

That's a real good point.

[Sports Guy]

Fair enough. I was responding to the comments at post #23, I should've quoted it.

Regardless, "stellar" to "average" is still a precipitous fall.

Kinda gives you pause about a guy like Chin-lung Hu, though, doesn't it? Here's a guy who seems to be coveted primarily because of a glove that nobody here has probably ever seen him use. It'd sure suck to give away valuable trade chips only to find out the hype was unwarranted.

Hu can also hit and no one has questioned his defense however i do think he is a bit overrated on here, in terms of what some would be willing to give up to get him.

[wildcard]

I am curious what posters have seen from Bynum at shortstop that makes them think he is below average defensively. I know he has not played SS consistently through the minors which makes people think that teams would have played him there if he was good at the position. I agree with that.

However my question is can you evaluate what he have seen. Here what I have seen:

Pros:

Charges ball well. Throws seem accurate. Good foot work around the bag. Seems to work well with Roberts. I have not been able to evaluate his range yet. I would say from what I have seen his arm is average. Quick reaction.

Con:

Laid back on one play on a high hopper and did not get the throw there in time. It was a bad decision not to charge, but we have seen him charge balls well so its not like he can't make that play, he just didn't.

Fell down on a play in the infield (on wet grass I believe) and didn't get the runner at first. He then tried to make the throw while on his butt and almost throw the ball away. Millar came off the bag and caught the throw.

That is about all I have to go on. What have you guys seen?

[davearm]

Hu can also hit and no one has questioned his defense however i do think he is a bit overrated on here, in terms of what some would be willing to give up to get him.

Folks know even less about Hu than they did about Hernandez (Hernandez they had at least seen play, last season).

They got it wrong (so it seems) on Hernandez' defense.

The jury's 100% out on Hu's ability to hit. He's had one good season, split between repeating at AA, and the PCL. You're making a leap of faith here, too.

[Sports Guy]

The jury's 100% out on Hu's ability to hit. He's had one good season, split between repeating at AA, and the PCL.

As for defense, folks know even less about Hu than they did about Hernandez (Hernandez they had at least seen play, last season).

They got it wrong (so it seems) on Hernandez.

I am going by scouts and defensive stats on Hu..You are right that visually, none of us have really seen him.

I agree about his offense...Reading what scouts said about his offense last year was very encouraging but I do agree that you have to question it somewhat....This is why I am not ready to trade a whole lot for him...A Bradford or Walker(if he gets going) for Hu type deal would be good...Or, a multi player deal for Sherrill with Hu included is fine.

[Frobby]

I am curious what posters have seen from Bynum at shortstop that makes them think he is below average defensively. I know he has not played SS consistently through the minors which makes people think that teams would have played him there if he was good at the position. I agree with that.

However my question is can you evaluate what he have seen. Here what I have seen:

Pros:

Charges ball well. Throws seem accurate. Good foot work around the bag. Seems to work well with Roberts. I have not been able to evaluate his range yet. I would say from what I have seen his arm is average. Quick reaction.

Con:

Laid back on one play on a high hopper and did not get the throw there in time. It was a bad decision not to charge, but we have seen him charge balls well so its not like he can't make that play, he just didn't.

Fell down on a play in the infield (on wet grass I believe) and didn't get the runner at first. He then tried to make the throw while on his butt and almost throw the ball away. Millar came off the bag and caught the throw.

That is about all I have to go on. What have you guys seen?

That's about all I've seen. I recall a play with 2 runners on where Bradford induced a hard grounder in the hole that Freddie was able to knock down but not field. Frankly, I thought he did well to knock it down. I've seen 1-2 other plays where a liner or a hard smash barely eluded a diving attempt, but they didn't seem to me to be plays that I necessarily would have expected a good SS to make.

Turning the DP, he has looked quite solid to me. I really don't have any complaints, though his weaknesses may be further exposed with more playing time.

[DrungoHazewood]

I am curious what posters have seen from Bynum at shortstop that makes them think he is below average defensively. I know he has not played SS consistently through the minors which makes people think that teams would have played him there if he was good at the position. I agree with that.

However my question is can you evaluate what he have seen. Here what I have seen:

Pros:

Charges ball well. Throws seem accurate. Good foot work around the bag. Seems to work well with Roberts. I have not been able to evaluate his range yet. I would say from what I have seen his arm is average. Quick reaction.

Con:

Laid back on one play on a high hopper and did not get the throw there in time. It was a bad decision not to charge, but we have seen him charge balls well so its not like he can't make that play, he just didn't.

Fell down on a play in the infield (on wet grass I believe) and didn't get the runner at first. He then tried to make the throw while on his butt and almost throw the ball away. Millar came off the bag and caught the throw.

That is about all I have to go on. What have you guys seen?

I think he's below-average defensively because dozens, if not hundreds, of scouts, GMs, managers, and coaches have seen him play and have seen his skills and came to the conclusion that he's a utility guy. Their judgment is why he's only played about 1/4 of his major league innings and 1/10th of his minor league games at shortstop.

If any significant number of those people thought he was even an average shortstop he'd be a regular shortstop. With his bat and an average SS glove he might be an average major league player on the verge of a big payday. Instead, it's clear they don't think he can handle the position defensively, and he's been a part-time utility player.

All of those people could be wrong. But chances are they're right.

I haven't seen enough of Bynum, nor does he have a significant sample of fielding data at short, for me to draw my own conclusions.

[Sports Guy]

Bynum has looked better at SS than i thought he would be but I also thought he would be pretty bad...That being said, he looks more comfortable out there and they say he has worked on it, so maybe he can make himself passable defensively over there.

I am glad they are at least giving him the chance because LH is terrible.

[El Gordo]

I think he's below-average defensively because dozens, if not hundreds, of scouts, GMs, managers, and coaches have seen him play and have seen his skills and came to the conclusion that he's a utility guy. Their judgment is why he's only played about 1/4 of his major league innings and 1/10th of his minor league games at shortstop.

If any significant number of those people thought he was even an average shortstop he'd be a regular shortstop. With his bat and an average SS glove he might be an average major league player on the verge of a big payday. Instead, it's clear they don't think he can handle the position defensively, and he's been a part-time utility player.

All of those people could be wrong. But chances are they're right.

I haven't seen enough of Bynum, nor does he have a significant sample of fielding data at short, for me to draw my own conclusions.

Yes but tyou can also say the same thing about Jon Knott's offense and we all know that Knott would be the scond coming of the Babe, were it not for those stupid old scouts and mean old GM types who won't give him a chance. The same thing with Jason Botts and Marte. :rolleyestf:

[El Gordo]

Bynum has looked better at SS than i thought he would be but I also thought he would be pretty bad...That being said, he looks more comfortable out there and they say he has worked on it, so maybe he can make himself passable defensively over there.

I am glad they are at least giving him the chance because LH is terrible.

Small sample size warning, but for what it's worth, Bynum has an .842 RZR at SS in 53 innings. By comparison Everett has an .848 in 150 innings. So if he can maintain his current level he should be pretty good.

[DrungoHazewood]

Yes but tyou can also say the same thing about Jon Knott's offense and we all know that Knott would be the scond coming of the Babe, were it not for those stupid old scouts and mean old GM types who won't give him a chance. The same thing with Jason Botts and Marte. :rolleyestf:

But we have reams of data that run counter your obviously hyperbolic ranting about Knott. Bynum hasn't even played half of a pro season doing the job for which we're now trying to evaluate him.

[wildcard]

I think he's below-average defensively because dozens, if not hundreds, of scouts, GMs, managers, and coaches have seen him play and have seen his skills and came to the conclusion that he's a utility guy. Their judgment is why he's only played about 1/4 of his major league innings and 1/10th of his minor league games at shortstop.

If any significant number of those people thought he was even an average shortstop he'd be a regular shortstop. With his bat and an average SS glove he might be an average major league player on the verge of a big payday. Instead, it's clear they don't think he can handle the position defensively, and he's been a part-time utility player.

All of those people could be wrong. But chances are they're right.

I haven't seen enough of Bynum, nor does he have a significant sample of fielding data at short, for me to draw my own conclusions.

Jon, I agree with you in concept. However, there may be two things that worked against him as he came through the minors. First he is versatile. Guys that can play many positions can get tagged with a utility label because managers love these versatile guys.

Second he is skinny. Many people think skinny is not durable or strong. If these two things are the reasons he did play a single position like SS, then they are not reasons to hold against him. I'm not saying these two things are the reasons, just that they might be.

That is why I am asking what people have seen from him at short. I would say from the answers, he is exceeding expectations so far. I guess we will just have to watch and see how good he turns out to be.

Do you have any scouting reports that talk about Bynum's shortcoming other then being versatile?