How much was the O's pitching to blame for Wieters poor pitch framing?

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, ArtVanDelay said:

I figured teams had been trying that with skilled framers but didn't know for sure.

No idea if it was a team thing, could have just been that particular pitcher.

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Dark Helmet said:

Thanks for the responses. I'm just trying to understand it.

Matt was great at foul tips. I Think thats going to be a missed asset.

 

Matt was actually a bit of an asset in the first couple of years Mike Fast collected data for.  His framing numbers have been in decline since then.

Seems odd, I don't recall framing as being a skill that declines for age with other players.  Maybe Matt starting putting less effort into his defense?  Maybe his larger frame is catching up with him?

[Dark Helmet]

17 minutes ago, ArtVanDelay said:

A pitch like that wouldn't hurt Wieters' framing stats.  It's only for the borderline ones.

A pitcher could miss his spot by a foot, and still have it be borderline. What if a C sets up on the outside corner and the pitcher hits the inside corner. The C has to adjust to that and still frame it. 

[Dark Helmet]

15 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Matt was actually a bit of an asset in the first couple of years Mike Fast collected data for.  His framing numbers have been in decline since then.

Seems odd, I don't recall framing as being a skill that declines for age with other players.  Maybe Matt starting putting less effort into his defense?  Maybe his larger frame is catching up with him?

It could be he tried to focus on becoming more of an offensive player. I think his size probably hurt him also.

[Dark Helmet]

Anyhow, Bill Ripken had said the Nats were interested in Wieters from the beginning. But was cautious of his pitch framing. Said Matt will benefit having better SP throwing to him. Will be interesting to see.

[ArtVanDelay]

19 minutes ago, Dark Helmet said:

A pitcher could miss his spot by a foot, and still have it be borderline. What if a C sets up on the outside corner and the pitcher hits the inside corner. The C has to adjust to that and still frame it. 

I'm not sure how that would be scored honestly.  I'll try asking Paul Swydan in his FanGraphs chat.

[Dark Helmet]

27 minutes ago, ArtVanDelay said:

I'm not sure how that would be scored honestly.  I'll try asking Paul Swydan in his FanGraphs chat.

Thanks

[weams]

He'll be great with the Nationals staff!

[Aristotelian]

I believe the title of the thread should go the other way. It is pretty clear to me that for two years Caleb Joseph the pitchers numbers across the board were better with him catching and that his framing was the biggest aspect. I don't have them in front of me, but it was pretty conclusive, just about every guy was significantly better with Caleb catching. Last year was tough to judge - he played a lot less, and spent most of his time catching Ubaldo. 

In no way is framing akin to cheating. As a catcher you are simply giving the best presentation possible and hoping that it gets called a strike. You would be a fool not to do it. If there was anything unsportsmanlike about it, you can bet teams would be drilling guys like Joseph left and right, but it's not, it's an accepted part of the game. 

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

I believe the title of the thread should go the other way. It is pretty clear to me that for two years Caleb Joseph the pitchers numbers across the board were better with him catching and that his framing was the biggest aspect. I don't have them in front of me, but it was pretty conclusive, just about every guy was significantly better with Caleb catching. Last year was tough to judge - he played a lot less, and spent most of his time catching Ubaldo. 

In no way is framing akin to cheating. As a catcher you are simply giving the best presentation possible and hoping that it gets called a strike. You would be a fool not to do it. If there was anything unsportsmanlike about it, you can bet teams would be drilling guys like Joseph left and right, but it's not, it's an accepted part of the game. 

I'd appreciate you posting that information, when you have the time.

[weams]

30 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I'd appreciate you posting that information, when you have the time.

I'd be surprised if it existed in a volume that I'd agree was convincing.

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, weams said:

I'd be surprised if it existed in a volume that I'd agree was convincing.

I'd still like to see it.

[Rene88]

The only things I hate more than Matt Wieter's pitch framing is Lew Ford and Craig Gentry-outright derelicts! 

[ArtVanDelay]

Saul Pwydan

9:13

How does pitch framing account for pitches that miss their target by a large margin? If a catcher is setting up outside corner, and the pitcher hits the inside corner but it's called a ball, does this hurt the catcher's framing stats even though he probably had no chance to frame the pitch?

 

Paul Swydan

9:14

I don't know for sure, but I would assume that it does hurt him.

 

Jeff Zimmerman

9:14

It hurt them. Part of the game.

[Dark Helmet]

1 hour ago, Aristotelian said:

I believe the title of the thread should go the other way. It is pretty clear to me that for two years Caleb Joseph the pitchers numbers across the board were better with him catching and that his framing was the biggest aspect. I don't have them in front of me, but it was pretty conclusive, just about every guy was significantly better with Caleb catching. Last year was tough to judge - he played a lot less, and spent most of his time catching Ubaldo. 

In no way is framing akin to cheating. As a catcher you are simply giving the best presentation possible and hoping that it gets called a strike. You would be a fool not to do it. If there was anything unsportsmanlike about it, you can bet teams would be drilling guys like Joseph left and right, but it's not, it's an accepted part of the game. 

Tillman was horrible in 2015. Bud Norris was horrible in 2015. Miguel Gonzalez was bad in 2015. Ubaldo has been hit or miss with anyone catching. Gausman had maybe his best season last year.