Omar Vizquel...Hall of Famer?

[Moose Milligan]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=caple/080528&sportCat=mlb&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab1pos1

What do you guys think?

[Jagwar]

Has there ever been another hitter with a sub-700 OPS who has been inducted?

[Moose Milligan]

Has there ever been another hitter with a sub-700 OPS who has been inducted?

Ozzie Smith, Luis Aparicio

[RShack]

Has there ever been another hitter with a sub-700 OPS who has been inducted?

That's one of the things SS's are for ;-)

[TGO]

I lean towards yes but I also think Trammell is a HOFer, FWIW.

1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball?

No.

2. Was he the best player on his team?

No.

3. Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position?

Even with his defense I don't think you make this argument. He only had an OPS+ over 100 twice.

4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?

Yes, played on 7 playoff teams and came close a few other times.

5. Was he a good enough player that he could continue to play regularly after passing his prime?

San Francisco obviously thinks so. Sort of hard to answer this because he peaked late at the plate.

6. Is he the very best player in baseball history who is not in the Hall of Fame?

No.

7. Are most players who have comparable career statistics in the Hall of Fame?

At his position, yes, most of them. Ozzie, Little Looie, Pee Wee, Maranville, Nellie Fox, etc. At other positions, goodness no.

8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?

By the standards, no. By the monitor, yes.

9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?

Probably, in that his defense is the majority of his value and defensive statistics are inexact and inconsistent.

10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame but not in?

He is probably right there with Trammell and Concepcion and arguably ahead of them.

11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close?

Not a MVP-caliber player.

12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the other players who played in this many go to the Hall of Fame?

Made three teams, arguably could have made four or five but probably not (his prime coincided with the rise of Jeter, ARod, Nomar).

13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant?

Probably not, though a team of Omars would be fun to watch in the field and the basepaths.

14. What impact did the player have on baseball history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?

Not really, though he is interesting in that he was an old school SS in the age of big power hitting SSs.

15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?

I've never really heard anything bad about him.

[Trinidad]

G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB BB SO AVG OBP SLG OPS

1. 2602 9526 1344 2609 419 71 77 873 381 948 956 .274 .340 .357 697

2. 2180 7937 1329 2340 441 76 198 960 379 939 817 .295 .371 .444 815

3. 2063 7398 1123 1963 394 67 195 860 91 853 1443 .265 .343 .416 759

4.2293 8288 1231 2365 412 55 185 1003 236 850 874 .285 .352 .415 767

Which of these four non HOF SS least and most deserve to be in the HOF??

Identities below:

1. Omar Vizquel

2. Barry Larkin

3. Jay Bell

4. Alan Trammel

[ChrisP]

He only made 68k in 1989. I had no idea he had 2600+ hits, 380+ SB's, and 11GG's. Hey...Why not...He's in for me.

[Sports Guy]

He is borderline....Ozzie had a WARP3 of 132 vs Vizquel's 100....Smith did it in less games.

The question is, does a guy like Vizquel see his chances go up because of the steroid era?

[Frobby]

To me Vizquel is a guy who falls a little short.

[Dracula]

He is borderline....Ozzie had a WARP3 of 132 vs Vizquel's 100....Smith did it in less games.

The question is, does a guy like Vizquel see his chances go up because of the steroid era?

This is what I was thinking. He came through in the age of the 'roids, but was clean, old school, and downright nasty in the field. The "steriod stats" are gonna overshadow him I think. If he played in a different era, I think he could have made the HOF. He's sorta in the mold of Cal and Gwynn just not as good.

I hope he makes it though, amazing glove, best I've seen as SS in a long long time.

[NJOriolesFan]

G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB BB SO AVG OBP SLG OPS

1. 2602 9526 1344 2609 419 71 77 873 381 948 956 .274 .340 .357 697

2. 2180 7937 1329 2340 441 76 198 960 379 939 817 .295 .371 .444 815

3. 2063 7398 1123 1963 394 67 195 860 91 853 1443 .265 .343 .416 759

4.2293 8288 1231 2365 412 55 185 1003 236 850 874 .285 .352 .415 767

Which of these four non HOF SS least and most deserve to be in the HOF??

Identities below:

1. Omar Vizquel

2. Barry Larkin

3. Jay Bell

4. Alan Trammel

Well I got it right before I looked at the names. However, you need to take defense into account and context of when they played. Although they all basically played at the same time.

I said 2 is the most likely and 3 is the least likely and after looking at the names, I still feel that way. OPS is only part of the test. Since OPS doesn't take SB into account. Also, if a guy is not a power hitter and it is not in his game to be such, it doesn't mean that he is an undeserving candidate. As far as defense, basestealing and OBP, I much prefer Vizquel to Jay Bell, even though Bell outdistances Vizquel in the almighty OPS.

I believe OPS is a little too over-rated but is the new flavor for the uninformed mass media. WARP, VORP and Win Shares are better measures of past performance than OPS.

However, Hall of Fame voting, which is done by those media types just looks at the "baseball card numbers" anyway.

[RShack]

I believe OPS is a little too over-rated but is the new flavor for the uninformed mass media. WARP, VORP and Win Shares are better measures of past performance than OPS.

I completely agree with you about OPS (except for the "little" part ;-)

Win Shares way undervalues D, plus it mixes together things among teammates. Of all of Bill James' many, many Excellent Ideas, Win Shares isn't one of them. (Nobody bats a thousand.)

[DrungoHazewood]

I need to do a closer look at his defensive performance, because I've always had the feeling he was a guy who won a lot of Gold Gloves because he was flashy and always on the highlight shows. And that he won one, so the voters just used him as the default forever.

As a hitter and a baserunner he's nowhere close. Compared to other eligible shortstops I put him a good distance behind Trammell and Larkin. Within the next half decade or so he'll have a tough fight comparing himself to Tejada, maybe Garciaparra, and he's not in the same league as ARod.

Depending on how the defense shakes out he pretty much has the Phil Rizzuto argument, minus the Yankee connection, the 50 years as a beloved announcer, and the World Series rings.

TGO's Keltner test is pretty good, although I'd argue Vizquel is behind Concepcion, Trammell, and Larkin. Right now I'd give him the thumbs down.

[Cubsfan]

If there is a really weak HOF class, he might have a chance, but looking at the possible names for 2013-2015 (Maddux, Bonds, Clemens, Glavine, Sosa, Piazza, Randy Johnson, Mussina, Biggio, Thomas, Smoltz, Hoffman, etc.), I would think a weak-hitting, defense-first SS would have a tough time.

[orayole]

I vote yes because of his defense.