TT: How bad are the Orioles?

[Tony-OH]

13 hours ago, birdwatcher55 said:

I think this team has quit on Buck. Losing Wieters has had a major impact on the clubhouse as well.

So what about the 22-10 start? Did they just start missing him in 30 days ago?

[eddie83]

I don't get some of the comments. Tillman isn't right physically and Gausman is lost. 

If those two are pitching like they did last year we aren't having many of these conversations right now. 

The team has more issues than those two but it isn't like the depth was any better the last couple of years.  Combine that with the pen injuries and this is where we are at. Imagine Gausman and Tillman pitching this bad last year and Britton being hurt, what would have been different than this year? This team had no margin for error with pitching staff.  

[glenn__davis]

8 minutes ago, eddie83 said:

I don't get some of the comments. Tillman isn't right physically and Gausman is lost. 

If those two are pitching like they did last year we aren't having many of these conversations right now. 

The team has more issues than those two but it isn't like the depth was any better the last couple of years.  Combine that with the pen injuries and this is where we are at. Imagine Gausman and Tillman pitching this bad last year and Britton being hurt, what would have been different than this year? This team had no margin for error with pitching staff.  

And Machado isn't hitting.

Machado/Gausman/Tillman/Britton.  There is your problem.  Aside from maybe Bundy and Jones, you could make an argument that they are the 4 most important players on the team, and they all have been ineffective for various reasons.

[Tony-OH]

37 minutes ago, glenn__davis said:

And Machado isn't hitting.

Machado/Gausman/Tillman/Britton.  There is your problem.  Aside from maybe Bundy and Jones, you could make an argument that they are the 4 most important players on the team, and they all have been ineffective for various reasons.

Sure does explain a lot now doesn't it. 

All this Duquette is an idiot and Buck forgot how to manage crap is so out of place. I'm not saying Duquette is perfect, but this team was setup to do well if it stayed healthy and players performed to their career track records. It was not set up, nor is any team to have it's top two starting pitchers by track record underperform badly, lose it's closer for most of the season, and have it's #3 hitter bat under .220 all season. 

I do think the window closed and the Orioles should retool, but this has more to do with the injuries and poor performance than any horrible management philosophy.

[Frobby]

20 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

Found one worse.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/BAL/BAL198806270.shtml

1988, Pete Stanicek in LF, Ken Gerhart in CF, Larry sheets in RF

I was looking for the ultimate of Jeff Stone in LF with Gerhart and Sheets but i could not find that game. Sheets was Trumbo-esque, Gerhart was brutal no matter where he played, and Stanicek was a 2B convert.

I was going to say, any OF with Jeff Stone.    For me, his defensive ineptitude is the most memorable thing about the worst team in Orioles history.   

[Sessh]

11 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Sure does explain a lot now doesn't it. 

All this Duquette is an idiot and Buck forgot how to manage crap is so out of place. I'm not saying Duquette is perfect, but this team was setup to do well if it stayed healthy and players performed to their career track records. It was not set up, nor is any team to have it's top two starting pitchers by track record underperform badly, lose it's closer for most of the season, and have it's #3 hitter bat under .220 all season. 

I do think the window closed and the Orioles should retool, but this has more to do with the injuries and poor performance than any horrible management philosophy.

I would disagree, at least partially, with some of this. Sure, it was built to do well if it stayed healthy and players performed to their career track records. Doesn't every team in baseball do that? However, the Orioles had absolutely no backup plan whatsoever and traded away too many pitching prospects for garbage. Putting all those eggs in one basket with NO backup plan in a sport where injuries are common is BAD managing of an organization and both Buck and DD are responsible for those decisions. We are seeing now just how nonexistent that backup plan was. It's even more ridiculous when considering Tillman's injury and that it was improperly handled during the offseason.

On top of that, there's a lot wrong with Buck's management philosophy. As a matter of fact, it's all the same things wrong there ever was only now, the team is not good enough to compensate for them. He still leaves pitchers in too long, still refuses to use his bench properly, is still too rigid on who can and can't be used before the seventh inning as if no high leverage situations can possibly exist before then and so on. Buck doesn't change. Not in over 20 years has Buck changed and he never will.

A "retool" isn't good enough. The organization needs to be wiped clean and replaced from top to bottom as far as coaches and philosophy goes, but of course, Angelos would never let that happen. So, I guess we'll see how bad we can mess it up this time. Hopefully, it's not another 14 years. I don't think I could take it.

[glenn__davis]

18 minutes ago, Sessh said:

 

On top of that, there's a lot wrong with Buck's management philosophy. As a matter of fact, it's all the same things wrong there ever was only now, the team is not good enough to compensate for them. He still leaves pitchers in too long, still refuses to use his bench properly, is still too rigid on who can and can't be used before the seventh inning as if no high leverage situations can possibly exist before then and so on. Buck doesn't change. Not in over 20 years has Buck changed and he never will.

 

I think Buck has changed fairly significantly.  He's gone from a combative, scorched-earth approach to more of a grandfatherly demeanor, and if anything I think he's been criticized for being too loyal and too much of a player's coach while here.  Quite the transformation from his earlier days, I'd say.  I think we've gotten an older, wiser Buck and that this team is all the better for it.  He has his warts as does every manager, but I wouldn't trade him for any other manager in baseball.

[NashLumber]

47 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Sure does explain a lot now doesn't it. 

All this Duquette is an idiot and Buck forgot how to manage crap is so out of place. I'm not saying Duquette is perfect, but this team was setup to do well if it stayed healthy and players performed to their career track records. It was not set up, nor is any team to have it's top two starting pitchers by track record underperform badly, lose it's closer for most of the season, and have it's #3 hitter bat under .220 all season. 

I do think the window closed and the Orioles should retool, but this has more to do with the injuries and poor performance than any horrible management philosophy.

And pretty much how DD laid it out with Roch in the latest column. 

"“The thing with our club is our two starting pitchers from a year ago, Chris Tillman and Gausman, they both put up a 4 WAR. This year they haven’t put up any positive WAR,” Duquette said. “Our club is designed for them to be the one and two starters based upon the level of performance that they’ve established for themselves in the past. So, our expectations and our projections are that they’re quality major league starting pitchers, and to date they certainly haven’t pitched that well.

“Jiménez is a streaky pitcher. Jiménez is in the (last) year of his contract and we expect him to make a contribution to the team as well. Of course, you’d like to have more good starting pitching. Who wouldn’t? But as far as the Orioles club and the struggles of the rotation, we’re basing what our expectations of what these pitchers will do on what they’ve been able to do in the past and the level of performance that they’ve set for themselves.

“They’re veteran major league pitchers. They should be able to make a contribution to this year’s club, and I expect they will.”"

 

 

http://www.masnsports.com/school-of-roch/2017/06/possible-roster-moves-and-duquette-on-rotation.html

 

[stef]

What DD doesn't mention is that the Os were aware of Tillman being less than 100% early in the offseason. 

[OFFNY]

1 hour ago, Tony-OH said:

 

Sure does explain a lot now, doesn't it. 

All of this Duquette is an idiot and Buck forgot how to manage crap is so out of place. I'm not saying that Duquette is perfect, but this team was set up to do well if it stayed healthy and most of the players performed to their career track records. It was not set up (nor is any team) to have it's top two starting pitchers by track record underperform badly, lose it's closer for most of the season, and have it's #3 hitter bat under .220 all season. 

I do think that the window closed, and that the Orioles should retool, but this has more to do with the injuries and poor performance than any horrible management philosophy.

 

o

 

There was a thread that was recently started in regard to Showalter being in the conversation for the American League "Manager of the Year", specifically considering the fact that the team is still hovering around the .500 mark in spite of all of the things that you mentioned.

 

I don't think that he will get it, nor do I think that he will be in the running (not because I don't think that he deserves to be, but rather because I suspect that the voters won't give a lot of recognition to what he has done/will do), but in the event that the 2017 Orioles do somehow manage to right this currently nightmarish ship and win 85 or 86 games (similar to the 2013 team), then I think that it would be yet another excellent feat in Showalter's tenure as the Orioles' manager.

 

o

[panick]

53 minutes ago, NashLumber said:

And pretty much how DD laid it out with Roch in the latest column. 

"“The thing with our club is our two starting pitchers from a year ago, Chris Tillman and Gausman, they both put up a 4 WAR. This year they haven’t put up any positive WAR,” Duquette said. “Our club is designed for them to be the one and two starters based upon the level of performance that they’ve established for themselves in the past. So, our expectations and our projections are that they’re quality major league starting pitchers, and to date they certainly haven’t pitched that well.

“Jiménez is a streaky pitcher. Jiménez is in the (last) year of his contract and we expect him to make a contribution to the team as well. Of course, you’d like to have more good starting pitching. Who wouldn’t? But as far as the Orioles club and the struggles of the rotation, we’re basing what our expectations of what these pitchers will do on what they’ve been able to do in the past and the level of performance that they’ve set for themselves.

“They’re veteran major league pitchers. They should be able to make a contribution to this year’s club, and I expect they will.”"

 

 

http://www.masnsports.com/school-of-roch/2017/06/possible-roster-moves-and-duquette-on-rotation.html

 

If this is true, why did Duquette sign Jimenez in the first place? Baldy had a very good first half of one of his seasons with Colorado and a good second half with Cleveland. Other than those two half seasons, Jimenez was as bad as he's been with the O's.

It's funny that some posters apparently think that Duquette is a good GM while so many others don't trust him to get the maximum return if the O's decided to trade Machado.

I was concerned about Duquette when the O's hired him. If he's supposed to be such a great judge of talent, why was he out of MLB for so long? 

[Sessh]

1 hour ago, glenn__davis said:

I think Buck has changed fairly significantly.  He's gone from a combative, scorched-earth approach to more of a grandfatherly demeanor, and if anything I think he's been criticized for being too loyal and too much of a player's coach while here.  Quite the transformation from his earlier days, I'd say.  I think we've gotten an older, wiser Buck and that this team is all the better for it.  He has his warts as does every manager, but I wouldn't trade him for any other manager in baseball.

Oh, come on? Is this Buck himself? Maybe his wife? He's not combative? DD goes out and signs K-Rod a few years ago and Buck decides not to use him at all based on his personal feelings about him? DD goes out and gets Kim and says in the media that he just needs time to figure it out while Buck is simultaneously benching him and not giving him any time? Not combative? There's been lots of times where it's obvious Buck and DD aren't on the same page. I'd call that combative. He did the same thing in Texas.

He made horrible managing decisions in the postseason with the Yankees revolving around going with a lesser arm over his proven closer and the Yankees lost the game. Not even after McDowell allowed two runners on base did Showalter bring in Wetteland who, by the way, racked up the most amount of saves in the 90's of any closer. Last year, he did the same stupid thing going with Ubaldo Jimenez over Zach Britton. Seems pretty similar to me. I can't speak of the D'Backs stint since I was pretty much uninterested in baseball during that time, but I'd bet he made similar blunders then too. A 100 win team eliminated in the ALDS in four games.

So no, he's not wiser at all. He's loyal to "Buck guys" and if you're not a "Buck guy", you're going to receive zero loyalty no matter how good you play. There is no transformation, he's the same guy. The deification continues. If the Orioles do well, Buck's a genius. If the Orioles do bad, it's not his fault. Come on, what do you expect him to do? He just fills out lineup cards. It's not HIS fault. He has just as much control (a lot) over personnel in Baltimore that he had in Texas and made some pretty horrible judgment calls that set the Rangers back quite a bit. Showalter is what he is. He is too stubborn to change or learn in any way evidenced by the fact that he still makes the same mistakes now that he did in 1995 and isn't much different at all from the guy that was in Texas.

[glenn__davis]

You and I are very far apart on this to the point that it's not worth discussing much further, so I'll add a few final points and then allow you to have the final word if you so choose.

I could not possibly care less about what Buck did in Texas, Arizona or NY.  I know that he had a reputation of being a loud-mouthed tough guy whose schtick worked for a while but then started to be tuned out.  For that reason I did not initially like the hire.  What I saw instead was a guy who puts top effort in and demands top effort from his players.  

I do not think he is perfect.  I agree that he didn't handle the Kim situation well.  I agree that his move in the WC game was terrible.  Aside from that I don't think his postseason record means anything.  The playoffs are a coin-flip.  

Frankie Rodriguez?  He pitched in 23 games for us in less than half a season.  You call that "not using him at all"?  He also put up a stellar 4.50 ERA with a 1.36 WHIP.  Maybe Buck would have used him even more if pitched a little better for us.  

So, take the last word.  Again, he's not perfect, but I think he deserves a significant amount of credit for bringing life back to the baseball scene in Baltimore, and for that I am very grateful.

[Sessh]

Fair enough, we can agree to disagree. I am also appreciative of what he did do because he certainly has ability as a manager in the regular season and has a well earned reputation for turning losing clubs around quickly and I'm not about to take that from him, but that is his ceiling as a manager. There's nothing wrong with that, it's just how it is. Every other organization he managed for figured it out in about three years and Buck should have been replaced after the 2015 season considering his track record. He certainly had a hand in reviving the Orioles, but the Orioles, like with their players, do not recognize what people are and aren't capable of nearly fast enough. It's no different with Showalter.

With Rodriguez, Johnson was blowing saves left and right and no matter how hot Rodriguez was, he never gave K-Rod a shot to close out games in place of Johnson. Not even once. In getting a little fired up, "not using him at all" was not an appropriate description. A more accurate one would be "not using him correctly". Rodriguez was a closer and I believe Hunter and O'Day were both used in save situations ahead of Rodriguez who had the experience and track record. Maybe Rodriguez was one of the types of players Showalter clashes with (ego etc.), but to not even TRY him at closer was inexplicable.

Anyway, many disagree with me about this and that's fine, but he has been put on far too high a pedestal where he is immune from any significant fault in anything, but gets all the praise when things go right. Doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to me, that's all.

[Frobby]

5 hours ago, Sessh said:

 

On top of that, there's a lot wrong with Buck's management philosophy. As a matter of fact, it's all the same things wrong there ever was only now, the team is not good enough to compensate for them. He still leaves pitchers in too long, still refuses to use his bench properly, is still too rigid on who can and can't be used before the seventh inning as if no high leverage situations can possibly exist before then and so on. Buck doesn't change. Not in over 20 years has Buck changed and he never will.

I don't agree with most of this.   Buck leaves his starters in too long?    We routinely rank at the bottom of IP/start.     There is only so much you can ask a bullpen to do, if you don't want their arms to fall off.    Sure there are days when I feel like Buck left a starter out there too long by a batter or two, or even a whole inning.    But you have to view those decisions in light of the total innings burden the bullpen is bearing.

Much the same point on how Buck uses his high leverage guys. You can only go to the well so often.    Buck's pen led the league in win probability added last year, and for 2012-16 combined.    I'd say he's gotten plenty of bang for his buck (no pun intended) out of his better bullpen guys over the years.