No more excuses, it's time for Williams to go

[inmn]

Chill out big guy.

I didn't mean it as though MD was some kind of dormat under Lefty. As you said he had some great teams. However they were not at the top national level towards the end of his years, and around the time that GW took over. And for all of those rankings you threw out they didn't get past the Elite 8, which is certainly a good feat but you'd think with those rankings they would have at least been to the final four once. I believe you should at least have to at least get to the Final Four once for your program to catapult as far as recruiting and being considered elite, and even doing it once doesn't mean you reach elite status.

GW had back to back final fours and won a Championship. Opened up the Comcast Center...2002 was likely the best all around year for MD BBall up to that date. Whatever level that Lefty was at, Gary took it multiple steps forward. Don't really see how that can be argued.

GW has done a great job.

Lefty likely would have been to the final 4 if the rules are similar to today, conversly GW would not have gone to the final 4 if the same rules from Lefty's early teams applied.

"they were not at the national level at the end of his career"

A reasonable person would conclude that 3 top 11 final rankings in 5 years is a "national" program". If you aren't even reading my posts there is no reason to continue this!!

[inmn]

INMN;

There are things that I know----I was a contemporary of Gary (Ralph as well) and Gary was a total introvert who said maybe 20 words a week---by delegation he was very successful----he left Ohio State with a top 10 caliber team to come to a wounded Maryland.--As an extreme introvert , he succeeded by delegating tasks he was weak at to others (RECRUITING)-------a system that worked very well for him thru the national championship years.

Yow resents him as a legacy--a success that she cannot take credit for.

If you go to the Md sport site http://forums.scout.com/mb.aspx?S=174&FIX=1#s=174&f=2580 and muck around there is a good amount of anti-Yow (as well as anti Gary) sentiment.

Stoner is just as optimistic over there by the way.

The reality is mens BB is the only major profit center with football being the only other profitable sport-----but barely so.

The fall of BB to this point is that assistant coach turnover has been so high---based on the sheer success of the program and the ACTIVE interference of Yow (Moxley).

Gary gets nill support in having recruits admitted---Clark---------AND I AM PROUD THAT GARY REFUSES TO FLY 500 MILES TO WAIVE AT A RECRUIT DURING A "NO CONTACT PERIOD" like Donovan did to Shavlik (who ended up at Duke)---and that he refused to be extorted for local---"don't rat" Anthoney======what a stellar character that Gary was criticized for not pursuing more aggressively.

Weem,

Gary will sometimes open up if he is around people he knows (not me) but it is obvious you know him as he is an introvert-which I think may hurt him in recruiting. I would suspect there is blame to go around on both sides. It's sad to see two people so well respected in their professions unable to get along. I do know she worked to get Evans admitted and then felt burned when the additional arrest came to light-when you deal with guys like Evans they are often not the most honest people. You are right, mens basketball funds the AD to with about an $8m profit-not revenue..profit.

[Tony-OH]

Sorry but how is that contending for the Sweet 16 EVERY year??

Kind of hard to do from the NIT-or were you referring to the NIT sweet 16?

Nice job in trying to get through, but the Williams apologists will never, ever see any logical or anything wrong with their God.

It's the same as the Billick apologists.

I've given up even trying, because we could go to the NIT ten years straight and they'll still be behind their guy.

It's almost a cult-like devotion if you ask me.

I just let them post away with each other where they can enjoy their NITs and their hopes that the next class will finally put MD back on the basketball map.

[Eight]

WOW! Cult like devotion? Were you one of the people lambasting GW for not being able to get past the Sweet 16 back around 2000?

No, pro-GW or anti-GW, I hardly see where it's unreasonable to think that a coach with a Hall of Fame track record deserves more than 3 mediocre, 19 win seasons before getting the axe.

What happens with the next coach who has no such track record? Fire him the first time he has a mediocre season?

[Tony-OH]

Ravenbird meet eight, eight meet Ravenbird...

There now, you guys are buddies and can go polish your GW statues.

Don't worry about all the evidence that suggests GW is no longer a good head coach at a major basketball program. Don't worry about him being an introvert and not recruiting well because of it. Don't worry about the fact that he doesn't even use all of his recruiting budget every year because he doesn't go anywhere. don't worry about the fact that the program is staring at it's fourth year out of five playing in the NIT and that two top recruits just decided to go elsewhere.

Don't worry about any of that stuff. Just sit back and tell yourself he's a hall of fame coach.

Hey while you are at, let's get rid of Dave Trembley and bring back Earl Weaver? I mean, Trembley had no major league experience and afterall, Earl is a hall of fame manager who has two World Championships under his belt and made his team a perrenial winner year in and year out.

It's easier to sit back at home at just ignore all the hard facts and blame it on bad luck or bad players (funny you never accept the fact that these are Williams' players that he brought in). It's always, if this guys didn't leave, or he was acedemically eligible, yada yada yada.

Williams is turning this program into an after thought on the college basketball scene and unfortunately as long as he's turning a profit for the University he's not going anywhere until he really takes a hard look at himself and makes the right decision and resigns.

I really don't want to see him get fired because I don't think that's good for anyone. But I do hope the University puts enough pressure on him that he chhooses to do the right thing for the program and it's fans.

[clapdiddy]

I truly thought that when Comcast Center opened, we would be looking at a team that would be able to recruit at least some of the BEST players in the country. Gary was coming off of a National Championship, and things were still looking bright for the program.

Now, it seems as if Gary doesn't put the effort into the recruiting process and it shows on the floor. How long do we have to go with a team that can't shoot from the outside? It's been a problem for quite a few years, and it still hasn't been addressed. Also, Gary's in-game coaching hasn't been great, either. His teams have rarely been able to run a capable half-court offense and other teams know this. They've got very little inside presence now, and they are going to rely on the inconsistent Vazquez even more now...and that scares the bejeebers out of me! :eektf:

A couple of years ago, I would agree that he needed some slack. But these last two years have convinced me that its time for Gary to go.

[Eight]

Ravenbird meet eight, eight meet Ravenbird...

There now, you guys are buddies and can go polish your GW statues.

Wow, I guess this is better than substantively discussing the relevant points others have brought up.

Don't worry about all the evidence that suggests GW is no longer a good head coach at a major basketball program. Don't worry about him being an introvert and not recruiting well because of it. Don't worry about the fact that he doesn't even use all of his recruiting budget every year because he doesn't go anywhere. don't worry about the fact that the program is staring at it's fourth year out of five playing in the NIT and that two top recruits just decided to go elsewhere.

Don't worry about any of that stuff. Just sit back and tell yourself he's a hall of fame coach.

Did he just start becoming an introvert? No, he hasn't recruited well lately, but that's a funny one. Who said he doesn't use his whole recruiting budget - do you really think the men's basketball program has a true budget on that sort of thing? The criticism that he "doesn't go anywhere" is just fictitious and overstated if you actually follow recruiting, not that I think you do. And of course that recruiting budget nonsense doesn't really take into account how many good prospects are in the region where it costs nothing but gas money to go see them.

(By the way, what did the evidence suggest about Gary Williams being a good head coach in 2006-2007?)

It's easier to sit back at home at just ignore all the hard facts and blame it on bad luck or bad players (funny you never accept the fact that these are Williams' players that he brought in). It's always, if this guys didn't leave, or he was acedemically eligible, yada yada yada.

Who said he didn't bring in the players? Does that mean that bad luck doesn't exist? The fact is that the first two NIT years the team missed by one game, and under a different set of circumstances, the Terps would have been dancing both of those years. And if that happens, this silly thread doesn't even exist.

[Ruzious]

Yeah, that's the first time I ever hear G Dub referred to as an introvert. I'm half expecting him to be called a pedofile next.

[Mackus]

The fact is that the first two NIT years the team missed by one game, and under a different set of circumstances, the Terps would have been dancing both of those years. And if that happens, this silly thread doesn't even exist.

I disagree with this.

The people who hate Gary have hated him for a long time, and even if we make the tournament during the Gilchrist/McCray years, they'd still be calling for his head coming off the loss to Butler last year and the NIT trip this year. He'll, people wanted him fired in February of 2001 after the loss to FSU. All he did to shut up the critics then was take the team to the Final 4 and then the NC the next year.

Gary's made some mistakes, for sure. The poor state of the program right now is 100% on him due to the poor recruiting classes the last 3-4 years (although the Greivis/Milbourne/Hayes class isn't a bad one, we just need a star to go with all the good players). But I think the people who think Gary doesn't deserve a chance to turn things around clearly have an agenda of hatred against the man. They can throw catchy phrases like "go pray to your Gary statues" around and try and needlessly bash the people who aren't out for blood all they want. It doesn't bother me.

I still think Gary is the best man on the planet to get Maryland back to the upper echelon program we should be. Maybe he'll screw it up, its certainly possible. But I firmly believe he is qualified, willing, and able to get the ship righted. Gary strikes me more as a Lute Olson type rather than a Bobby Knight type who is out of touch with the current athlete. I think he'll get the job done.

And I know that he deserves the opportunity, regardless of what some of his critics have to say. How long that opportunity lasts depends on numerous factors, but he definitely deserves the chance.

[Tony-OH]

Please do your due diligence before posting. Lefty coached at Md for 16 years-8 of those years Md's final ranking was in the top 11!!!! he had final national rankings of 11,10, 4, 5, 11, 8, 11, and 10!!! How is that not a "national competitor"?? He had a better overall win % and a better win % in the ACC.

In comparison GW has had 5 top 15 teams in 19 years (4 top 11). GW has done a great job they simply are not a national contender every year, they have been maybe 3-4 out of 19 years.

BTW as detailed here before GW had a pretty talented team the year he came in with 3 guys who went to the pros.

I think you mean in subsequent years with probation kicking in.

How old are you-do you have any sense of history of the Md program??

Great post. Thanks for the history lesson for those who's memories only remember Williams.

[Tony-OH]

Wow, I guess this is better than substantively discussing the relevant points others have brought up.

Dude, chill out. Just a play on the old David Letterman Oprah, meet Uma thing. Try to enjoy yourself and stop the little whining.

Did he just start becoming an introvert? No, he hasn't recruited well lately, but that's a funny one. Who said he doesn't use his whole recruiting budget - do you really think the men's basketball program has a true budget on that sort of thing?

It's been widely reported including a post on here that GW is a bit of introvert. As for the budget, I don't have the link to the article but the Sun did a piece a few months back that talked extensively on how GW does not use his recruiting budget because he doesn't go anywhere. It also stated that the Women's programs actually spends more to recruit.

The criticism that he "doesn't go anywhere" is just fictitious and overstated if you actually follow recruiting, not that I think you do. And of course that recruiting budget nonsense doesn't really take into account how many good prospects are in the region where it costs nothing but gas money to go see them.

Sorry, it may be a simplification by saying he "doesn't go anywhere," but he certainly has never beaten the trails as much as the ohter big name coaches. Again, this was in the article.

Who said he didn't bring in the players? Does that mean that bad luck doesn't exist? The fact is that the first two NIT years the team missed by one game, and under a different set of circumstances, the Terps would have been dancing both of those years. And if that happens, this silly thread doesn't even exist.

See, this is not a silly thread at all. It's brought out exactly what I wanted, which is discussion on the merits of GW as coach of the Terps. Just because you don't agree with my facts and opinions, does not make it silly. I'll be nice and not knock you the rep points for saying my thread is silly, because I think I've earned enough respect around here to not be mocked.

Now, to your point. Please show me the NBA players that GW has brought in since the National Championship? Ok, none really, so show me the players who have graduated? Oh yeah, he stinks there too.

How in the world do you take the momentum that a National Championship season brings a program and turn it into the disaster that we certainly are going through?

You know how? Laziness and feeling like the job was done. I truly believe Williams got lazy in his approach and felt players would just be fawning all over themselves to be the next Juan Dixon and Lonny Baxter.

I'll tell you what, the last top notch player GW recruited was Chris Wilcox. I really thought he turned the corner with that recruit but I think Williams felt betrayed when Wilcox went pro and decided to try and find the next Lonny Baxter and Juan Dixon instead of getting a few Wilcox's who may only give the program one or two years, but who will keep your program dancing.

I used to be a big GW fan, but I feel betrayed by his laziness and arrogance that has led to this program being in shambles. Players leaving at every opportunity, NITs in 3 out of 4 years, and staring straight at another NIT season.

Maybe that's ok to you and some others, but I believe we deserve more.

[Mackus]

I'll tell you what, the last top notch player GW recruited was Chris Wilcox. I really thought he turned the corner with that recruit but I think Williams felt betrayed when Wilcox went pro and decided to try and find the next Lonny Baxter and Juan Dixon instead of getting a few Wilcox's who may only give the program one or two years, but who will keep your program dancing.

They may not have panned out exactly as hoped, but Gilchrist, Garrison, Jones, Ibekwe and Gist were all pretty highly rated guys IIRC. Similar to Wilcox. At least certainly at the time they signed, I think Wilcox shot up a lot after committing to MD. His late rise was one of the big reasons he was able to sneak out of North Carolina.

I agree he hasn't delivered any top tier guys the last 3 years, and have criticized him for it. But he has been involved with the right type of guys, and even gotten commits but for various reasons they haven't made it to CP.

[Tony-OH]

They may not have panned out exactly as hoped, but Gilchrist, Garrison, Jones, Ibekwe and Gist were all pretty highly rated guys IIRC. Similar to Wilcox. At least certainly at the time they signed, I think Wilcox shot up a lot after committing to MD. His late rise was one of the big reasons he was able to sneak out of North Carolina.

I agree he hasn't delivered any top tier guys the last 3 years, and have criticized him for it. But he has been involved with the right type of guys, and even gotten commits but for various reasons they haven't made it to CP.

I hear your Mac, but if you claim GW has brought in the high level recruits, then you have to question his ability to develop that talent.

He's brought in some decent college guys, no doubt, but he's missing that impact guy, and that in my opinion comes from going out and showing the love to these kind of guys.

This is the me generation. I'm not thrilled with it either, but it comes down to the fact that guys like Rudy Gay leave our own backyard and that should not happen. With the right coach, it would not of happened in my opinion.

This is an honest question to the GW backers, is it the players GW recruited that have been sub par, or were they not developed properly? If it's neither, then what has it been?

[BaltimoreTerp]

I hear your Mac, but if you claim GW has brought in the high level recruits, then you have to question his ability to develop that talent.

He's brought in some decent college guys, no doubt, but he's missing that impact guy, and that in my opinion comes from going out and showing the love to these kind of guys.

This is the me generation. I'm not thrilled with it either, but it comes down to the fact that guys like Rudy Gay leave our own backyard and that should not happen. With the right coach, it would not of happened in my opinion.

This is an honest question to the GW backers, is it the players GW recruited that have been sub par, or were they not developed properly? If it's neither, then what has it been?

Well why does it have to be either-or? There has to be something on the players, too. They have to be willing and/or able to develop.

Guys like Garrison and John Gilchrist were major recruits, but they didn't develop. That could be the fault of the coaches, but then how do you expalin all the other players that DID develop, especially the ones who did beyond their supposed talents?

And Rudy Gay might not be the best example, with all of the questions surrounding his recruitment. I don't think that is the kind of recruit we should have gone "all-out" to get, you know?

[Mackus]

I hear your Mac, but if you claim GW has brought in the high level recruits, then you have to question his ability to develop that talent.

He's brought in some decent college guys, no doubt, but he's missing that impact guy, and that in my opinion comes from going out and showing the love to these kind of guys.

This is the me generation. I'm not thrilled with it either, but it comes down to the fact that guys like Rudy Gay leave our own backyard and that should not happen. With the right coach, it would not of happened in my opinion.

This is an honest question to the GW backers, is it the players GW recruited that have been sub par, or were they not developed properly? If it's neither, then what has it been?

I think Jones was supposed to be one of those super elite talents. He just didn't pan out. Whether its from coaching, being over-hyped or whatever reason. He was still a good player, just not the stud he was supposed to be. I don't know enough to know where or why he fell short, just that he did.

Missing out on Gay was big too. That really hurt. From what I've read Gary had realized that his two classes following the NC didn't have a star and went after Gist and Gay to be the two headliners along with supporting cast from the veterans. Missing out on Gay really hurt that. I put that more on some shady tactics from Calhoun than Gary not doing his work. I think most of the people who are really into recruiting share that opinion. I don't think Gay left due to lack of effort from Gary, although again there are people more in the know than me, several on this board who hopefully can shed some light.

Since then though, the shortcomings are on Gary, no doubt. He's gotten the ear of a few really talented guys, but they just haven't come here. That's on him and he's gotta account for that. I just think he should be given the benefit of the doubt and the opportunity to fix his mess rather than get canned without any regard for what he's done or meant to the program.

And by "his mess" I mean the team last year and likely this upcoming year. I don't really view the first two NIT teams as indictments of Gary as a coach. There were very obvious outlying circumstances those seasons. Those teams as visualized by Gary were Sweet 16 caliber at worst. But losing their best player in mid-season (gilchrist has to be considered lost, at least his mind) turned those teams into bubble teams. I do agree they weren't Final 4 caliber teams as they should've been after the NC, but that's not a heinous crime, just a bit disappointing.