No more excuses, it's time for Williams to go

[Gofannon]

I'll be honest - I really don't know what to do with Gary.

This offseason has been as bad as an offseason could possibly be without a recruiting violation or some genuine tragedy in the program. The following people have committed to play here in the fall of '08, whether a letter of intent or a verbal - Gilchrist, Jennings, Maze, Evans, Mosley. We may go 0 for 6, and that's with people who have committed to us! That doesn't even include the local talent that's gone elsewhere, other ships that have passed in the night (Ken Bowman, anyone? Ater Majok's soft verbal?), or Shane Walker leaving.

To look at this offseason as anything other than an unmitigated disaster and to hope that next year's team has a better chance to make the tournament than last year's team is not just putting lipstick on a pig, it's putting lipstick on the back end of a pig.

Basketball coaches have to do four things - win, recruit, graduate, maintain alumni support. Right now Williams hasn't been recruiting and hasn't been graduating anyone. If he doesn't win, he's 0 for 3, and alumni support will start to go as well, don't you think?

To place the blame on Yow or Gilchrest or Gilchrist or McCray or Garrison or any of the other popular whipping boys while tooting what Gary's built here is complete blindness. This is Gary's program. He's built it - you're right. That means he gets blame, too. He's the one who has recruited these guys. He's responsible for this horrible recruiting year. He's also worked with Yow for 14 years. Shouldn't he now know how to work within the parameters she's giving him?

To compare Williams to Roy Williams or Jim Calhoun, as others have on here, is crazy unless you're going by age group. Just looking at recent records, I guess Jim Boeheim is a possible comparison, though his squad is loaded for next year.

I've always agreed with the Billick comparisons to some degree, though on a college basketball level, I wonder how much we're looking at the end of the Denny Crum era. Similar highs, similar lows, though Crum had recruiting violations that Gary never has. I think Crum resigned at 64. When Gary's 64, he may well have just led his team to its 4th NIT in 5 years.

It's scary to think of the Maryland program without Williams. They could be like Louisville after Crum (bring in big-name coach and have the program return to glory), or they could be like St. John's after Lou Carnesecca (4 or 5 coaches in 15 years).

I sure hope things turn around, because I love Maryland basketball, and I hope recruiting and graduation rates turn around. But I think Maryland is now set up to have even more trouble recruiting. You know other schools will be talking to recruits about Maryland's downturn, this disastrous offseason, and the fact that there coach is getting a Social Security check and may be in the twilight of his career.

Again, as I said at the beginning, I don't know what to do with him. It's hard to envision firing him, but next year is set up to be a bad one. Do we wait a year and fire him next year, when he's got 4 NITs out of 5 and is a year older? Are we just putting the program on hold if we do that? Has he earned that? I don't know. I do know I wouldn't give him a lifetime pass.

For those of you who got this far, thanks for reading.

[Mackus]

Again, as I said at the beginning, I don't know what to do with him. It's hard to envision firing him, but next year is set up to be a bad one. Do we wait a year and fire him next year, when he's got 4 NITs out of 5 and is a year older? Are we just putting the program on hold if we do that? Has he earned that? I don't know. I do know I wouldn't give him a lifetime pass.

I don't think he gets a lifetime pass, but I certainly don't think its fair to tell him "do it next year or you are gone". The majority of this anger is because next year is looking to be so bad. So to basically tell him he has to overachieve by a great amount or he's gone is absurd, in my view. If you tell him he needs to get things looking in better shape within a year, thats a different story. Tell him he needs to bring in a very good class, that should be able to work with what is already here and make us a legit NCAA team by the following year.

That would be the minimal thing that he deserves, and I'd probably give him even another year beyond that, although if things aren't looking very good by that point, I'd expect him to gracefully walk away rather than force Yow and, more importantly to him, the boosters and University in general make an ugly decision.

I still think it'll be several years longer before Gary and this University that I love part ways, and I think that is a very good thing. I've just got confidence in the man to get this program to where we all think it should be.

[EddieO's21]

I don't think he gets a lifetime pass, but I certainly don't think its fair to tell him "do it next year or you are gone". The majority of this anger is because next year is looking to be so bad. So to basically tell him he has to overachieve by a great amount or he's gone is absurd, in my view. If you tell him he needs to get things looking in better shape within a year, thats a different story. Tell him he needs to bring in a very good class, that should be able to work with what is already here and make us a legit NCAA team by the following year.

That would be the minimal thing that he deserves, and I'd probably give him even another year beyond that, although if things aren't looking very good by that point, I'd expect him to gracefully walk away rather than force Yow and, more importantly to him, the boosters and University in general make an ugly decision.

I still think it'll be several years longer before Gary and this University that I love part ways, and I think that is a very good thing. I've just got confidence in the man to get this program to where we all think it should be.

Mac as much as I love your passion, the program is going under legendary status for this "fall from grace." I can't remember a program in recent memory that has had so many recruiting and performance struggles so early after a national championship. As cliche as it sounds, Gary is really having a tough haul keeping up with the times.

The game hasn't passed him by, but certainly the intangibles and minor idiosyncrasies that surround it and are vital to success might have. Good on the court coaching can only take you so far

[Golgo]

Mac as much as I love your passion' date=' the program is going under legendary status for this "fall from grace." I can't remember a program in recent memory that has had so many recruiting and performance struggles so early after a national championship. As cliche as it sounds, Gary is really having a tough haul keeping up with the times.

The game hasn't passed him by, but certainly the intangibles and minor idiosyncrasies that surround it and are vital to success might have. Good on the court coaching can only take you so far[/quote']

I think you can find programs that have had similar falls (I guess it depends on what you consider recent): UMass, Arkansas, Cinci, UNC (with a recent resurgence), Syracuse (to a lesser extent), Georgetown (with a recent resurgence), etc.

Also, the landscape of college basketball has changed dramatically since the NC. THis is mainly due to the major rise of the "mid majors." Back then you were talking about a couple of mids making regular splashes (gonzaga, creighton), but now you start adding teams like Butler, W-Kentucky, Davidson, etc. making splashes in the tourney on a regular basis. This is not to say that Gary gets a free pass on this, but I think the changes have been pretty dramatic. The UNCs, the Dukes, UCLAs, etc don't have as much trouble making this adjustment due to being able to recruit almost exclusively on legacy. Gary may be taking a bit longer than some in adjusting. I dont think he necessarily gets a lifetime pass, but I think he should get cut some slack - more slack than some on this board are willing to give him.

[Gofannon]

I don't think he gets a lifetime pass, but I certainly don't think its fair to tell him "do it next year or you are gone".

I was just basing the lifetime pass comment on something you mentioned on the first page. Others here feel the same way. I'm not sure if you were saying that you'd give him a lifetime pass, but you don't think he gets one. I understand that.

I do agree with you that you can't tell him to do it next year or he's gone. The man has done enough for the school and the program that they won't put him in that situation - do well with a team inferior to last year or you're out of there.

Oh, and he certainly doesn't go anywhere on June 16th, either.

I just think we can't assume things will be worse without him or better without him. That depends on whether you replace him with a Rick Pitino or a Craig Esherick (figuratively speaking).

[Eight]

Ok, none really, so show me the players who have graduated? Oh yeah, he stinks there too.

See this is the type of criticism that bothers me. The infamous 0% graduation rate was about the classes that made up a large part of the National Championship roster. While I'd like to see some of them graduate (and some like Tahj Holden, have), do people REALLY care about them not graduating?

Not to mention that over the past two years Ibekwe, Bowers, Brown, Gist, and Osby graduated, making it five of the last seven scholarship seniors. Dave Neal will likely be added to that list next year making it 6-of-8 but we rarely here about that.

You know how? Laziness and feeling like the job was done. I truly believe Williams got lazy in his approach and felt players would just be fawning all over themselves to be the next Juan Dixon and Lonny Baxter.

Hey, I don't disagree that he hasn't put 100% effort into keeping the program at an elite level. He's too good of a coach for this to be his best effort. But I think it is a vast oversimplification.

The main issue has been recruiting. The '02 and '03 classes were good. Regardless of results and regardless of people claiming years later that "everyone knew they were overrated", those classes were highly touted. Was that the product of laziness? Gilchrist was pretty close to being the big timer you say we've lacked, but unfortunately his head wasn't on straight.

Now, the next two classes did stink. A guy like Dave Neal should not have been given a scholarship, especially in a year with few to give. The lack of getting a four year PG, and instead taking Ledbetter and Brown, was bad. The Rudy Gay-Calhoun episode hurt a lot, and so did Shane Clark mysteriously falling through the cracks. Still, those were not good classes.

Then the next two classes ('06-'07) were solid, but with the lack of upper class leadership from the previous two bomb classes, combined with the lack of a big timer in those classes has made those two classes look worse than they are.

'08 is a completely different story. There have been a ton of talented players that have committed here at one time or another only to end up elsewhere - Gus Gilchrist, Bobby Maze, Tyree Evans, Terrence Jennings, Ken Bowman, maybe Ater Majok - that speaks to things happening that are outside of Gary not doing his job.

So I'm not sure what the answer is or what the exact problem is. In the end Gary's results will stand on their own merits, good or bad. But right now, on 6/17/2008, I think Gary deserves at least one more season to turn it around.

[accinfo]

'08 is a completely different story. There have been a ton of talented players that have committed here at one time or another only to end up elsewhere - Gus Gilchrist, Bobby Maze, Tyree Evans, Terrence Jennings, Ken Bowman, maybe Ater Majok - that speaks to things happening that are outside of Gary not doing his job.

It does speak to the job he is doing. It is well known that Jennings, Bowman, Evans and MAze had severe academic and/or other outside problems. That is why they were available at this way late stage. Lets see how many of them ever play college basketball next semester or ever. Instead of grasping as these straws Gary williams should have signed a 2008 class two years ago with talent and that could read and write.

[Golgo]

See this is the type of criticism that bothers me. The infamous 0% graduation rate was about the classes that made up a large part of the National Championship roster. While I'd like to see some of them graduate (and some like Tahj Holden, have), do people REALLY care about them not graduating?

Not to mention that over the past two years Ibekwe, Bowers, Brown, Gist, and Osby graduated, making it five of the last seven scholarship seniors. Dave Neal will likely be added to that list next year making it 6-of-8 but we rarely here about that.

I agree that this is pretty much a non-issue. If you consider non-scholarship players its 7 out of 9 graduating the past 2 years.

You can find a nice propaganda piece on it here:

http://umterps.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/061208aac.html

[Ruzious]

It's been widely reported including a post on here that GW is a bit of introvert.

Can you provide a link for that and how it's affected his job performance?

[Gofannon]

Guys like Gircrest, Jones, Garrison, Ibekwe...These guys were all highly rated as has been said by other guys in this thread. I think it's a reflection of both Gary and the players that they didnt' pan out. However, maybe it's just me being naive, but it's really hard for me to put alot of blame on a coach with the track record as Gary when a guy doesn't develop. 18 year old guy full ride all the luxuries, or Hall of Fame coach? Which is the one that has more of an inclination for something to go wrong on their end?

QUOTE]

A couple of things here:

While Gary does have a track record, the track record is with guys who finished playing 5 or more years ago. Recently there have been a lot more guys who haven't lived up to their supposed potential (Gilchrest, Jones, Garrison, Ibekwe, Caner-Medley) than guys who have reached their "potential" (Strawberry, maybe Gist). That doesn't include low-ceiling guys such as Osby, who certainly improved.

Even with Gary's track record, the track record of the last five years is nowhere near as strong.

I'm sure the ever-revolving door of assistant coaches has something to do with that, but there's no denying he's swung and missed more than he's connected even before this recruiting season.

[weemnj]

Can you provide a link for that and how it's affected his job performance?

Over the years Gary had ,quite successfully, delegated a major part of recruiting to his asst. coaches. With the success of the national championship many of Gary's asst. coaches were hired away to better positions-one of the prices of success. This hiring away and Moxley's alleged mistreatment at the hands of Yow caused a serious disruption to ,not only recruiting, but player development as well.

[accinfo]

Gary is going to be there this year…

There is a lot of off season left.

[Mackus]

There is a lot of off season left.

Oh come on. :rolleyestf:

[mweb]

I think Gary should stay as I've said, just want to add that it doesn't make sense to compare keeping Gary Williams at MD to keeping Billick with the Ravens. Very different situations.

[Tony-OH]

See this is the type of criticism that bothers me. The infamous 0% graduation rate was about the classes that made up a large part of the National Championship roster. While I'd like to see some of them graduate (and some like Tahj Holden, have), do people REALLY care about them not graduating?

Not to mention that over the past two years Ibekwe, Bowers, Brown, Gist, and Osby graduated, making it five of the last seven scholarship seniors. Dave Neal will likely be added to that list next year making it 6-of-8 but we rarely here about that.

Hey, I don't disagree that he hasn't put 100% effort into keeping the program at an elite level. He's too good of a coach for this to be his best effort. But I think it is a vast oversimplification.

The main issue has been recruiting. The '02 and '03 classes were good. Regardless of results and regardless of people claiming years later that "everyone knew they were overrated", those classes were highly touted. Was that the product of laziness? Gilchrist was pretty close to being the big timer you say we've lacked, but unfortunately his head wasn't on straight.

Now, the next two classes did stink. A guy like Dave Neal should not have been given a scholarship, especially in a year with few to give. The lack of getting a four year PG, and instead taking Ledbetter and Brown, was bad. The Rudy Gay-Calhoun episode hurt a lot, and so did Shane Clark mysteriously falling through the cracks. Still, those were not good classes.

Then the next two classes ('06-'07) were solid, but with the lack of upper class leadership from the previous two bomb classes, combined with the lack of a big timer in those classes has made those two classes look worse than they are.

'08 is a completely different story. There have been a ton of talented players that have committed here at one time or another only to end up elsewhere - Gus Gilchrist, Bobby Maze, Tyree Evans, Terrence Jennings, Ken Bowman, maybe Ater Majok - that speaks to things happening that are outside of Gary not doing his job.

So I'm not sure what the answer is or what the exact problem is. In the end Gary's results will stand on their own merits, good or bad. But right now, on 6/17/2008, I think Gary deserves at least one more season to turn it around.

Ok, although I don't agree, that's a valid assessment. I just get frustrated with the people who give Williams a lifetime pass.

Let me ask you though, what would need to happen in this next season for you to be for Williams being shown the door? NIT? Losing record in ACC?

I think most of us agree we're looking at a tough season next year, so what has to to happen for you to finally get on the Gary needs to go train?