Tom Tango and "Clutch"

[weams]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TommyPickles]

I think most people who played sports competitively growing up would agree that being clutch is a real thing.

 

Now, how significant it is at the Major League level, or how feasible it is to quantify? That’s another matter.

 

But, yea, these are humans. I’m sure some players have gone out and went 0-4 with three strikeouts, in part because they had an argument with their wife or something the night before and felt stressed or tired or whatever.  My point being people’s emotions and personalities effect their job performance. 

[weams]

1 minute ago, TommyPickles said:

I think most people who played sports competitively growing up would agree that being clutch is a real thing.

 

Now, how significant it is at the Major League level, or how feasible it is to quantify? That’s another matter.

 

But, yea, these are humans. I’m sure some players have gone out and went 0-4 with three strikeouts, in part because they had an argument with their wife or something the night before and felt stressed or tired or whatever.  My point being people’s emotions and personalities effect their job performance. 

I think and a numbers only dude, Mr. Tango is focused only on amplitude and measurement.  I agree with you though. It does exist, it may be of some importance in the highest league. 

 

 

[baltfan]

This take is so right.  It is silly to think that there are no people that are better in the clutch.  Psychologically at least a certain percentage of people must be worse.  That means that others will be better.  Much of it is probably about controlling emotions.

[foxfield]

I believe without question it IS a thing.  But I also concede that due to the inherent SSS in defining clutch, it is nearly impossible to quantify.

 

When you see it, you know it.  Or maybe put another way, when we see it we believe it to be so.

 

Reggie Jackson became Mr. October by performing at a high level in the clutch...But in spite of that earned reputation, he did in fact not homer in every single October at bat.  It only seemed that way.

[Can_of_corn]

The issue I have with "clutch" is if they can perform at that level in high leverage situations why can't they perform at the level the rest of the time?

(That's doesn't include starting pitchers.)

[foxfield]

6 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

The issue I have with "clutch" is if they can perform at that level in high leverage situations why can't they perform at the level the rest of the time?

(That's doesn't include starting pitchers.)

Actually, Corn, that is pretty easy.  Baseball is not like football, where you play once a week.  Baseball is not timed, and it is by virtually every measure a grind to participate in a season.  Baseball players do not always go at 100%.  Most of them are not so bold as Manny to say it but they don't.  But most try to dial it up a notch or save a little extra for those big moments. Maybe it's not about saving physical energy...like say hustling but applying extra mental focus.  I do not know.

 

By your logic a pitcher that can throw 105...should be able to do that all season in every situation.  Clearly it doesn't work that way.  The real question is can we measure clutch.  No, not in an effective way.   But that doesn't mean folks shouldn't try.

[Ohfan67]

5 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

The issue I have with "clutch" is if they can perform at that level in high leverage situations why can't they perform at the level the rest of the time?

(That's doesn't include starting pitchers.)

People are weird. I certainly know people in my profession who perform better when under the most pressure. I have a tendency to perform better right up against important deadlines when my stress hormones are crazy high. I am a little suspect about a lot of supposedly "clutch" performances as it is usually focused on very small sample sizes, but some people have increased focus when stress hormones and the like are peaking. There certainly seem to be athletes and regular folk who perform below their average when under lots of stress, although some of the small sample size concerns are true in those cases too. Adding wildcard games has really increased the data sets for some of these analyses. 

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, foxfield said:

Actually, Corn, that is pretty easy.  Baseball is not like football, where you play once a week.  Baseball is not timed, and it is by virtually every measure a grind to participate in a season.  Baseball players do not always go at 100%.  Most of them are not so bold as Manny to say it but they don't.  But most try to dial it up a notch or save a little extra for those big moments. Maybe it's not about saving physical energy...like say hustling but applying extra mental focus.  I do not know.

 

By your logic a pitcher that can throw 105...should be able to do that all season in every situation.  Clearly it doesn't work that way.  The real question is can we measure clutch.  No, not in an effective way.   But that doesn't mean folks shouldn't try.

I will go to my grave thinking a hitter should be able to fully concentrate for 4-5 at bats a game.

[foxfield]

11 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I will go to my grave thinking a hitter should be able to fully concentrate for 4-5 at bats a game.

So, 500+ at bats or more in a season.  And everyone just like another?  Sorry, I'll go out on a limb and say you have not fully applied your brilliant insight to each and everyone of your 70K posts.  Nor would anyone expect that...

 

Seriously though.  Whether you ever played the game or not I don't think is relevant here.  But surely you concede that hitting a thrown baseball is considered one of the most difficult things in sport.  I think if we can accept that as fact and then consider the long litany of things that go into the surroundings or the atmosphere of baseball: Weather, wind, time of day, lighting, crowd noise, background.  The immense focus it takes...on top of natural ability, to both recognize the pitch, determine to swing and then to complete said swing successfully.  I just think it is odd that a student as broadly knowledgeable as you are, would opine such an overly simplistic notion as above. 

[Can_of_corn]

9 minutes ago, foxfield said:

So, 500+ at bats or more in a season.  And everyone just like another?  Sorry, I'll go out on a limb and say you have not fully applied your brilliant insight to each and everyone of your 70K posts.  Nor would anyone expect that...

 

Seriously though.  Whether you ever played the game or not I don't think is relevant here.  But surely you concede that hitting a thrown baseball is considered one of the most difficult things in sport.  I think if we can accept that as fact and then consider the long litany of things that go into the surroundings or the atmosphere of baseball: Weather, wind, time of day, lighting, crowd noise, background.  The immense focus it takes...on top of natural ability, to both recognize the pitch, determine to swing and then to complete said swing successfully.  I just think it is odd that a student as broadly knowledgeable as you are, would opine such an overly simplistic notion as above. 

Is this my job?  Am I getting paid?  Don't you think the standard should be different for hobbies?  If during the course of my work day I had five periods of my day where I was expected to be at my best for a three minute interval I think I could do that.

What would that be in real life?  A surgeon that performs TJ surgery?

 

All of that is not connected to low or high leverage situations.

If anything it should be more difficult to hit in a high leverage situation since you should be facing more skilled competition.

[Moose Milligan]

There's a giant difference between an at bat in the bottom of the 9th when you're down 7 runs in a game in early June and an at bat down two runs with 2 RISP in the bottom of the 9th in October.

I'd like to believe that most ballplayers apply the same kind of focus to each at bat.  How many meaningless late inning homers have you seen in your life that take a deficit from 8 runs down to 6?  But to pretend that every at bat is the same, the amount of importance is the same is silly.

On a similar note, I can't imagine a competitor like Michael Jordan placing as much emphasis on a jump shot against the Bullets in December as he would in a game against the Lakers in the Finals.  MJ was the ultimate competitor but I don't he was putting the same emphasis on his game when playing a lowly team vs trying to annihilate anyone in the playoffs.

[theocean]

10 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Is this my job?  Am I getting paid?  Don't you think the standard should be different for hobbies?  If during the course of my work day I had five periods of my day where I was expected to be at my best for a three minute interval I think I could do that.

What would that be in real life?  A surgeon that performs TJ surgery?

 

All of that is not connected to low or high leverage situations.

If anything it should be more difficult to hit in a high leverage situation since you should be facing more skilled competition.

You've never worked with someone who, as soon as the spotlight is put on them, can't handle any responsibility assigned to them?

You've never known anybody who can sing or perform in front of a few friends, but as soon as there is a crowd, they tense up?

 

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, theocean said:

You've never worked with someone who, as soon as the spotlight is put on them, can't handle any responsibility assigned to them?

You've never known anybody who can sing or perform in front of a few friends, but as soon as there is a crowd, they tense up?

 

First off that's not relevant since we are talking about the opposite, folks that elevate their game when the pressure is higher.

Secondly I would think that folks like that would mostly wash out before they get to the majors.

[foxfield]

9 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Is this my job?  Am I getting paid?  Don't you think the standard should be different for hobbies?  If during the course of my work day I had five periods of my day where I was expected to be at my best for a three minute interval I think I could do that.

What would that be in real life?  A surgeon that performs TJ surgery?

 

All of that is not connected to low or high leverage situations.

If anything it should be more difficult to hit in a high leverage situation since you should be facing more skilled competition.

Well first off, the standard clearly is different for hobbies and that should not require pointing out.  The point stands that doing something over and over will by its very nature, produce different levels of....let's say focus.  If you believe reducing the game of baseball, or hitting specifically at a professional level, to what consists of 5 three minute periods where someone needs to be at their best, I will simply say that either you are debating for the sake of debating or you have no idea what you are talking about.

Since I have seen you take Chris Davis to task for his lack of work and fight....I'll just assume the former, because I know better than the latter.

I will say, that Earl Weaver kept Terry Crowley specifically because he thought he could perform as you bold above.  But he frequently noted that his ability was special.