Give Sisco another Chance

[HowAboutThat]

12 hours ago, Frobby said:

Maybe not a great game with the throws, but glad to see the two base hits, which were pretty key.  

Sadly, he’s only worthwhile  behind the plate if he’s exceptional at the plate. I am very glad that more skilled eyes then mine agree that his defense is a detriment. 

The people here who say that “nobody steals bases anymore anyway” are forgetting what we saw last night, which is that the book is out on him and the book says, “steal all you want”

In his defense(no pun intended)the fact that he’s dealing with a cavalcade of new pitchers every week doesn’t help.

[Tony-OH]

7 minutes ago, Philip said:

I have a question about that. I’ve heard that suggestion before, and if he can’t throw accurately to second, how can he be expected to throw accurately from 3rd to 1st? The only difference i can think of is that third base has a little bit more time to prepare, and you’re not throwing from a squat position.

It's a different throwing motion completely. different footwork, different timing, different everything really. 

[HowAboutThat]

24 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

The post above that you quoted was responding to a post that was talking about the comparison. You went off subject by quoting my evaluation of Sisco and bringing up Severino which is not what I was discussing. Had I mentioned Severino or made any mention of Sisco being the worse defensive catcher than that comment would have been appropriate.

I realize that nuance is not easy for everyone.

 

Actually, Tony, several other people have mentioned before that Sisco is superior to Severino. I have watched Sisco, and I find that really hard to believe, although I was at the game in Texas where Severino hit his three homeruns, but also threw to second base When no one was there.

Because it is extremely likely that these are our two catchers for the next season at least, I think it would be extremely interesting to have an article devoted to a direct comparison of the two. I would rather have Severino any day, Because he seems to be the better all-around player.

But I am quite willing to be convinced otherwise, and some expert insight Would help a lot.

thanks.

[MurphDogg]

39 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

By the way, on the first stolen base Brooks was 1.28 to home plate (1.3 is considered average) and Sisco's pop time was actually right on his average 2.10 which is amongst the lowest in baseball. That one is more on Sisco.

The second steal was definitely on Brooks. He was slow to the plate 1.5 and both runners never stopped moving. He clearly did not think they would try a double steal. Sisco actually had a 2.0 pop time on the second throw but it wasn't close because of bad a job Brooks did. 

 

Watching live, from behind the plate, it looked to me that the the runner took off on the first one super early on Brooks. So even if he was fast to the plate, the runner had him timed really well and an additional .1 or even .2 on Sisco's pop time wouldn't have been enough to nab him.

[MurphDogg]

48 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

The post above that you quoted was responding to a post that was talking about the comparison. You went off subject by quoting my evaluation of Sisco and bringing up Severino which is not what I was discussing. Had I mentioned Severino or made any mention of Sisco being the worse defensive catcher than that comment would have been appropriate.

I realize that nuance is not easy for everyone.

 

I didn't quote you (or anyone) when I brought up Severino compared to Sisco. It was however discussed earlier in the thread. By you. When you declared Severino to be a "superior defensively in many, many aspects behind the plate".

 

The numbers (at least the one's offered by Baseball Prospectus) disagree with your (and indeed my) eye test. It is worth noting defensive catching statistics even if you aren't a big believer in them (I am also not wholly convinced on how much stock to put into them).  

 

It is obviously an appropriate comment to compare our two starting catchers defensively when discussing one of our catchers and whether he should remain at catcher. It was appropriate when you did it and appropriate when I did it.

[Can_of_corn]

57 minutes ago, Philip said:

Sadly, he’s only worthwhile  behind the plate if he’s exceptional at the plate. I am very glad that more skilled eyes then mine agree that his defense is a detriment. 

The people here who say that “nobody steals bases anymore anyway” are forgetting what we saw last night, which is that the book is out on him and the book says, “steal all you want”

In his defense(no pun intended)the fact that he’s dealing with a cavalcade of new pitchers every week doesn’t help.

How did those stolen bases work out for the Nats?

[Tony-OH]

1 hour ago, Philip said:

Actually, Tony, several other people have mentioned before that Sisco is superior to Severino. I have watched Sisco, and I find that really hard to believe, although I was at the game in Texas where Severino hit his three homeruns, but also threw to second base When no one was there.

Because it is extremely likely that these are our two catchers for the next season at least, I think it would be extremely interesting to have an article devoted to a direct comparison of the two. I would rather have Severino any day, Because he seems to be the better all-around player.

But I am quite willing to be convinced otherwise, and some expert insight Would help a lot.

thanks.

The numbers suggest Severino is not very good at framing, but is an average to above average thrower. His game calling is fine and I like how he commands the pitcher on the mounds with positive feedback and visits when needed. 

Sisco has improved in several areas like game calling (though I don't like the fact he goes low and away with fastballs with two strikes much too often where the batter has a chance to defend better because of the little bit of extra reaction time. 

For me, all Sisco needs to do is control the running game. We can't have teams running wild on him or putting added pressure on the pitcher to be faster because he's trying to make up for Sisco's weakness. 

 

[Tony-OH]

1 hour ago, MurphDogg said:

Watching live, from behind the plate, it looked to me that the the runner took off on the first one super early on Brooks. So even if he was fast to the plate, the runner had him timed really well and an additional .1 or even .2 on Sisco's pop time wouldn't have been enough to nab him.

I'm glad you have the ability to watch the pitcher's delivery and the jump of the runner live during a game and make that assessment. All I did was go back and watch actual video of the two steals, watching while timing the pitcher's delivery and pop times and then another take to watch the jumps, but hey, you do you. 

You aren't the fist person or last person who thinks they are right, proven wrong with facts and details, and then still wants to stick to your live in game view. OldFan#5 would be proud. At least Chance Sisco sounds like a baseball name so you got that going for you.

[HowAboutThat]

21 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

How did those stolen bases work out for the Nats?

(Sigh) Corn Corn Corn...are you saying that a free base isn’t worth taking?

Are you saying that because the Nats lost last night, it proves that stolen bases are meaningless?

Tsk tsk.

we exploit our enemies’ weaknesses, and if our catchers are lousy throwers( combined with new pitchers every week or so, and awful pitchers every single day) well then that’s a major weakness that can be exploited. “Nobody steals bases anymore” except against the Orioles.

[HowAboutThat]

22 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

The numbers suggest Severino is not very good at framing, but is an average to above average thrower. His game calling is fine and I like how he commands the pitcher on the mounds with positive feedback and visits when needed. 

Sisco has improved in several areas like game calling (though I don't like the fact he goes low and away with fastballs with two strikes much too often where the batter has a chance to defend better because of the little bit of extra reaction time. 

For me, all Sisco needs to do is control the running game. We can't have teams running wild on him or putting added pressure on the pitcher to be faster because he's trying to make up for Sisco's weakness. 

 

If I understand you correctly, you’re saying that if Sisco can improve his control of the running game, you would prefer him?

Or do you prefer Sisco now regardless?

[LookinUp]

2 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

You obviously devalue the defensive worth of a catcher. I'm a big proponent of good defensive catching and unfortunately, I don't see enough things from Sisco that would make me want him behind the plate in big games against a good team. Also, with Rutchsman coming, I'd like to see him tried at other positions, particularly 3B since there is a need in the system there.

I do feel better about his bat after this season, but I'm still perplexed by how bad he was in just about every aspect last year with regard to stats and analytics. He definitely is a lot stronger so there's that. 

Not sure why you're in a spat with Murph, but I did notice the above bolded line tucked away in one of those posts and I think it's spot on.

To me, Sisco can appear to be a valuable ML catcher over a 162 game season just the way he is because the bat matters so much. However, when the games get important and/or the good teams leverage you in every way they can, his defense will be exploited and it will hurt the team. The margins for error against good teams just don't allow for a player that is involved in every single pitch to be sloppy and generally ineffective.

[MurphDogg]

26 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

I'm glad you have the ability to watch the pitcher's delivery and the jump of the runner live during a game and make that assessment. All I did was go back and watch actual video of the two steals, watching while timing the pitcher's delivery and pop times and then another take to watch the jumps, but hey, you do you. 

You aren't the fist person or last person who thinks they are right, proven wrong with facts and details, and then still wants to stick to your live in game view. OldFan#5 would be proud. At least Chance Sisco sounds like a baseball name so you got that going for you.

I'm not questioning the times, that information is obviously helpful. Glad to see that on the second stolen base, Sisco was at a 2.0, hopefully he can maintain that time as an average as that would be a decent pop time. However, the time to the plate doesn't account for the jump of the runner.

 

As you well know, there are three measurements, time to the plate, pop time by the catcher, and reaction speed / anticipatory jump by the baserunner. You offered the first two of those measurements, I merely suggested that the third of those was also a factor. If a baserunner is able to accurately anticipate when the pitcher is going to go home, it doesn't particularly matter how fast to the plate the pitcher is (or how fast the catchers pop time is), because the runner will beat the throw regardless. You offered no opinion in your previous post as to the jumps. Because you didn't mention the jumps, I suggested that the jumps may be a factor. Now based on your response, I am assuming you believe that the jumps weren't particularly noteworthy,  and I am mistaken, That is of course fine, but then you went on to insult me.

 

I appreciate your constant efforts to make this such a welcoming board for knowledgeable baseball fans.

[MurphDogg]

2 minutes ago, LookinUp said:

Not sure why you're in a spat with Murph.

That makes two of us.

[Tony-OH]

1 hour ago, Philip said:

If I understand you correctly, you’re saying that if Sisco can improve his control of the running game, you would prefer him?

Or do you prefer Sisco now regardless?

I don't think Sisco is going to get any better at throwing out runners because his velocities on his throws are pretty low overall so it's not all footwork and release like we thought.

I prefer Severino overall and think he's got a nice chance to have a nice long career behind the plate, even if it will mostly be in a backup or platoon role. Sisco's bat has improved enough that I'd like to see if he's able to add to his versatility so they can find a way to get him in the lineup. 

I could be wrong, but I don't think Sisco will be a longterm major league catcher unless a team is willing to overlook the flaws in his defensive game. Good, contending teams tend to want good defensive catchers.

[atomic]

People can complain about our catchers all they want but that is the only position where we are above average. And that is thanks to both Sisco and Severino.