Naughty By Nurture- From a Derailed Thread

[Dark Helmet]

2 hours ago, weams said:

I was simply stating what you already know, there are many reasons why Dominicans excel and some folks cheat to be among the best 800. But you know that. And you do have some points in your nurture vs. nature argument. But there is a very serious drop off from the best 1000 or so humans at the sport of baseball. And hitting a baseball is that drop off.  It's too hard. It's practically impossible. 

Tell that to Orioles pitchers.

[24fps]

How likely is it that the elite athleticism required to play baseball at the major league level is going to go undiscovered throughout middle school and high school?  Furthermore how likely is it that the possessor of that talent is going to remain oblivious to the rewards awaiting such a rare individual if he just develops what God/nature gave him?

Some perhaps, but not many IMO - at least not in the US.  Such raw talent is recognized early and most of these kids are given sufficient opportunity to succeed.  Almost all don't.  Some find their way to other sports, but they don't wander around invisible in any case.  The Natural is a good story, but he's not an archtype.

[Frobby]

8 hours ago, 24fps said:

How likely is it that the elite athleticism required to play baseball at the major league level is going to go undiscovered throughout middle school and high school?  Furthermore how likely is it that the possessor of that talent is going to remain oblivious to the rewards awaiting such a rare individual if he just develops what God/nature gave him?

Some perhaps, but not many IMO - at least not in the US.  Such raw talent is recognized early and most of these kids are given sufficient opportunity to succeed.  Almost all don't.  Some find their way to other sports, but they don't wander around invisible in any case.  The Natural is a good story, but he's not an archtype.

I think you are underestimating the number of inner city kids who never play baseball.

[interloper]

Hard disagree with weams. Millions do not have the opportunity or choose to focus on something else and would never know. 

"They could if they want" is an incredibly ignorant thing to say when some folks are simply struggling to survive day to day and would never know if they could be an elite athlete if given the chance and training.

[interloper]

14 hours ago, weams said:

I think I could find other children who are more than convinced of it. But you be you.

Mathematically and scientifically the 800 number is very obviously incorrect and assumes so many wonderfully wrong things. There's nothing else really to debate.

[TonySoprano]

12 hours ago, Dark Helmet said:

Tell that to Orioles pitchers.

[weams]

4 minutes ago, interloper said:

Hard disagree with weams. Millions do not have the opportunity or choose to focus on something else and would never know. 

"They could if they want" is an incredibly ignorant thing to say when some folks are simply struggling to survive day to day and would never know if they could be an elite athlete if given the chance and training.

I'm sorry I showed ignorance. I am not talking athletics. I'm talking hitting a baseball at an MLB caliber level. It's so incredibly hard. Only 800 get to do it.  We are fortunate to be in a situation where we can discuss this rationally. I remember the stories of players starting playing stickball, or like Hank Aaron, simply having his hands backwards on a bat. It's great to dream on the opportunity to become one, but it won't happen. I do believe the muscle memory to improve can be trained for an individual already predisposed for that excellence. 

[weams]

2 minutes ago, TonySoprano said:

He's not one of the blessed 800. 

[interloper]

I mean there are probably a hundred or more in the minors alone who will never get the opportunity because of things like contracts or front office politics or simply roster limitations. The cap on ability to hit baseball is arbitrarily set by the rules of the game as determined by a billion dollar industry. There's 25 roster spots and that's not the individual's fault 

[weams]

Just now, interloper said:

I mean there are probably a hundred or more in the minors alone who will never get the opportunity because of things like contracts or front office politics or simply roster limitations. The cap on ability to hit baseball is arbitrarily set by the rules of the game as determined by a billion dollar industry. There's 25 roster spots and that's not the individual's fault 

True. I agree with you. A couple of those minor leaguers can hit. If they were given a chance. Some could stick. But then, someone needs to leave since there are only so many slots at the most elite level. 

[Ohfan67]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

I think you are underestimating the number of inner city kids who never play baseball.

And the number of middle class kids that don't play baseball. It's a huge number. 

[weams]

2 minutes ago, Ohfan67 said:

And the number of middle class kids that don't play baseball. It's a huge number. 

I do believe that most guys who can hit a baseball play. 

[weams]

3 minutes ago, Ohfan67 said:

And the number of middle class kids that don't play baseball. It's a huge number. 

ANd maybe only at a lower level. Or maybe they can and they get bored with it. But most of us enjoy doing things that we are good at. 

[Ohfan67]

Just now, weams said:

I do believe that most guys who can hit a baseball play. 

Man, we will have to just disagree. Baseball just isn't that popular of a sport anymore. Here in Texas, for example, 7 on 7 summer football and the like attracts more and more athletically talented kids. Summer basketball is a big thing for kids dreaming of playing in college, etc. Heck, even MLB is doing all they can to get big city kids to play baseball and are mostly failing. 

[Ohfan67]

3 minutes ago, weams said:

ANd maybe only at a lower level. Or maybe they can and they get bored with it. But most of us enjoy doing things that we are good at. 

Soccer moms are not called baseball moms for a reason.