If Mussina wins 20, is he a shoe-in for the Hall?

[waroriole]

How can Mussina not be a HOF pitcher? Over 250 wins, which is supposed to be the new benchmark. He has a great ERA, and was consistently one of the best pitchers in baseball for a long time.

[Old#5fan]

In 1992, Mussina won 18. He didn't make his first start until the 10th game of the season. I guess he started as the #5 starter. He averaged 7.5 ip/start that year, and he pitched 8 or more innings in each of his last seven starts. The team won 9 of his last 10 starts; the only loss was a 14-inning defeat. He won his last 7 decisions.

In 1994, Mussina won 16 games in just 24 starts. The strike probably robbed him of 10-11 starts. He won his last two starts and seven of his final 8 decisions.

In 1995, Mussina won 19. He was the Opening Game starter but the season didn't start until April 26th due to the strike. In his last three starts of the season, he pitched three complete games, allowing 1 run on 10 hits in 27 innings (0.33 ERA). EDIT: The one run he allowed over that time was in the first inning of his third to last start, so his final two starts were complete game shutout wins and he finished the season with 26 consecutive scoreless innings without handing the ball to the bullpen. The strike probably robbed him of 4 starts.

In 1996, Mussina won 19. In his second to last start, he pitched 7 innings and left with the lead, but the bullpen gave it up. EDIT: In his last start, he pitched 8 innings and allowed 1 earned run, but Benitez blew the save before the O's won in the 10th inning.

In 1999, he won 18. His team won his last seven starts. He won his last 5 decisions.

In 2001, he won 17. The team was 6-1 in his last seven starts. He won his last five decisions.

In 2002, he won 18. He won his last two starts.

In 2003, he won 17. He lost his final decision, but won six of his final eight decisions.

# of times he stepped on the mound with 19 wins and didn't get his 20th?

EDIT: (I knew that wasn't right!) Four, all in 1996, culminating with two blown saves by the bullpen.

Thanks. I was off then. Apparently he only choked in 96 when it came to getting his 20th. He really didn't any other year which sort of surprises me.

[Old#5fan]

How can Mussina not be a HOF pitcher? Over 250 wins, which is supposed to be the new benchmark. He has a great ERA, and was consistently one of the best pitchers in baseball for a long time.

He has never attained most of the awards, accomplishments and significant stats that most other HOF starting pitchers have along with a lot of wins. Such as no Cy Young awards, no 20 game winning season, few All-star appearances, no ERA titles, no No hitters, etc. No WS ring or great wins in post season, etc.

[Old#5fan]

Since despite his lack of respect for other opinions and no comprehension for the simplest concepts in baseball and football he is allowed to remain a member, than I have no problem trying to straighten him out from time to time.

Maybe you should start with yourself first.

[TyCobb]

He has never attained most of the awards, accomplishments and significant stats that most other HOF starting pitchers have along with a lot of wins. Such as no Cy Young awards, no 20 game winning season, few All-star appearances, no ERA titles, no No hitters, etc. No WS ring or great wins in post season, etc.

I don't have the stats, but I would be surprised if he was the 1st HOF to get in with out any of those awards.

[Old#5fan]

How does '96 qualify as choking?

Someone has unreasonably high expectations. It is okay to have high expectations, but it isn't okay when those expectations are unreasonable.

He had four tries to get 20 and didn't get it.

[BaltimoreTerp]

Thanks. I was off then. Apparently he only choked in 96 when it came to getting his 20th. He really didn't any other year which sort of surprises me.

Holy dear sweet mother of Cal Ripken.

[DrungoHazewood]

Apparently you fail to realize that virtually every starting pitcher in the HOF had at least a 20 win season and most have multiple years of 20 or more victories. So Mussina would be the first ever to make it without having that seemingly basic common trait. I happen to think that should be viewed as unusual. I think you are acting like an ostrich if you cannot see this. In other words to dummy it down for you it may not be a requirement but it is one of the common denominators. So to trivialize it is doing so to any HOF stat commonly shared simply because your boy doesn't have it on his resume. I find this extremely more illogical than anything I have posted on this subject.

You fail to realize that standards change over time.

Well, obviously. You were born in 1887, and there your opinions have stayed.

[DrungoHazewood]

Yeah they may be similar if you add about a point to Palmer's ERA, take away all his Cy Youngs, twenty game winning seasons, playoff and WS performances, number of complete games and shutouts that he has that exceed Mussina, no-hitter, and there you have it. They are similar. Let's put Mussina in on the first ballot as none of those things really matter anyway~~!:rolleyestf:

If you are in fact human, I have never met a human more hidebound in his opinions. You are an anachronism wrapped in 100% pure stubbornness.

[Old#5fan]

He left his next to last start in the 7th inning with the lead, only to have Alan Mills and Jesse Orosco blow it for him.

He left his last start after 8 innings with the lead, only to have Armando Benitez do what he had a propensity for doing all too often.

To say that he choked in those two starts is downright idiotic.

Please note that I'm not calling you an idiot. I am, however, calling that opinion idiotic.

So tell me, if Mussina had stayed in Baltimore would you hold the same opinion? I bet I can guess your answer.

I was afraid someone would ask me your question as to my thoughts on this had Mussina remained an Oriole. I have thought about it and it is a tough call. For one thing, you didn't state this but if he put up the same numbers with the Orioles that he has after going to the Yankees that would be a much greater achievement because during this time frame the Orioles were terrible. So based on that, I might be on the fence. However, my gut feeling is he still hasn't attained enough of the common denominators shared by most starting pitchers in the Hall. I mean for all the silly comparisions I read here on this thread to Jim Palmer, Palmer had THREE CY YOUNG AWARDS! How many does Mussina have? I mean regardless of the era, if you win a Cy Young Award it meant you were the most dominanting pitcher that year in your league, and Palmer won that honor multiple times and Mussina, uh, NEVER! I mean Steve Stone and Mike Flanagan won a Cy Young and while that doesn't get them to the HOF it makes one wonder why Mussina deserves the HOF as he was never truly dominant in any season, just very good over a long time. Sorry, but to me that is not HOF worthy absent the normal or common denominators I have already delineated multiple times on this thread. You just can't overlook them now as an excuse to allow Mussina or anyone else in the HOF.

[Old#5fan]

QUOTE=DrungoHazewood;1428024]If you are in fact human, I have never met a human more hidebound in his opinions. You are an anachronism wrapped in 100% pure stubbornness.

Actually I am what is known as a "relict hominoid" part Almasty, Sasquatch, and Yeti. Sort of a hybrid Neanderthal. I do have a hide that is extremely tough albeit covered with hair, am very elusive, and while an endangered species have yet to be shown to truly exist. [:laughlol:

[Pedro Cerrano]

I can't believe you guys continue to try to debate with someone who uses # of 20 win seasons as a criteria for the HOF. He reminds me of the guitarist on Spinal Tap who thought he had a special amp because it went to 11. When someone is this freaking illogical, the proper choice is to figuratively pat them on the head like a little kid by telling them something like "OK, whatever you say, Tiger", and move on. You can't use logic on a fungo bat. It just doesn't work.

I've come to the conclusion that this guy, somehow, is breaking board rules. When literally EVERY thread he posts repeatedly on turns into a s***show, it doesn't pass the smell test.

[Bobby Young RW]

Moose should go to the Hall even if he never has a 20 win season. His entire career has been spent pitching in the AL East. Enough said.

[Nigel Tufnel]

I can't believe you guys continue to try to debate with someone who uses # of 20 win seasons as a criteria for the HOF. He reminds me of the guitarist on Spinal Tap who thought he had a special amp because it went to 11. When someone is this freaking illogical, the proper choice is to figuratively pat them on the head like a little kid by telling them something like "OK, whatever you say, Tiger", and move on. You can't use logic on a fungo bat. It just doesn't work.

Yeah, what was that guitarist's name...

[Old#5fan]

I've come to the conclusion that this guy, somehow, is breaking board rules. When literally EVERY thread he posts repeatedly on turns into a s***show, it doesn't pass the smell test.

That post you quoted was a perfect illustration where someone either didn't read, or only read what they wanted into one of my posts. I guarantee you I never anywhere at any time EVER stated that a 20 win season would automatically qualify a pitcher for the HOF or is the ONLY criteria that should be used to get in. It just amazes me sometimes how far some people try to go to prove someone wrong. Then you have someone else read only that blatently erroneous post and like you, fall prey to making such a statement as you have just made. Again, I never said it was the number one criteria but it most certainly is a common denominator that simply cannot be tossed aside to get Mike Mussina more qualified.