Jump to content

Is Omar Vizquel a HOFer?


Sanfran327

Vizquel to the Hall?  

47 members have voted

  1. 1. Vizquel to the Hall?

    • Yeah, are you crazy?
      3
    • Umm... probably.
      13
    • Ehh... gotta leave him out
      22
    • No, are you crazy?
      9


Recommended Posts

The BBTN guys just touched on this subject briefly as they wrapped up their weekly webgem segment (Roberts last week was at the top of the list!). Is Vizquel a HOFer? Does a guy get in on glove alone? Remember, he's not always been a terrible hitter. He's had some years with a decent average and a bunch of hits, but mainly he's been a glove man. Does the greatest fielding SS ever get into the HOF? IS he the best fielding SS ever? Better than Ozzie??

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 55
  • Created
  • Last Reply
He had one season in his career with an OPS over .800

He used his stellar glove to make up for his anemic bat.

Definiltey not Hall worthy.

I had to laugh at even the suggestion of this. Correct me if I am wrong but I always thought the HOF was for few and far between players who were absolutely great and would stand out in any era, time, place, or team. One of the common traits would be perennial league leaders in major offensive categorys along with gold glove or equivilent defense, along with frequent all-star appearances. Vizquel was a great glove man and that is about it.

I think Roberto Alomar should be a most deserving candidate for the HOF as he could field and hit. Not so with Vizquel.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I had to laugh at even the suggestion of this. Correct me if I am wrong but I always thought the HOF was for few and far between players who were absolutely great and would stand out in any era, time, place, or team. One of the common traits would be perennial league leaders in major offensive categorys along with gold glove or equivilent defense, along with frequent all-star appearances. Vizquel was a great glove man and that is about it.

I think Roberto Alomar should be a most deserving candidate for the HOF as he could field and hit. Not so with Vizquel.

Yeah, but you don't think he's an historically good fielder? I do...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No, I don't think he's particularly close. He was really an awful, awful offensive player which became especially pronounced as Tejada, Nomar, Arod, etc. came into the league en masse. No doubt he was a wonderful defensive player - he'd have to have been just to keep his name in the lineup. Unless he's a fair bit better than Ozzie Smith defensively, he's been only a bit above average over his career, at best.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No, but he's closer than some are giving him credit for.

Has a 99.3 WARP3, over 2,600 hits, 1,350 runs, almost 400 steals, 11 gold gloves, and 3 all stars. One of the best defensive SS's ever, and he was an above average hitter for his position for much of his career. He's basically a poor man's Ozzie Smith.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

He had one season in his career with an OPS over .800

He used his stellar glove to make up for his anemic bat.

Definiltey not Hall worthy.

I don't think he gets in, but your point is wrong.

You think only 1 season of .800 OPS isn't enough?

Brooks had only 2.

Ozzie Smith had none, and only 1 over .750.

Aparicio had none, and only 2 that were over .700.

The HOF is not about OPS.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No, but he's closer than some are giving him credit for.

Has a 99.3 WARP3, over 2,600 hits, 1,350 runs, almost 400 steals, 11 gold gloves, and 3 all stars. One of the best defensive SS's ever, and he was an above average hitter for his position for much of his career. He's basically a poor man's Ozzie Smith.

I'd be surprised if he were above average offensively, even for SS, more than a small handful of times. He's at about -12 runs below average per 600 PA for his career. He definitely would have had a few seasons better than the average SS, but for his career he's almost certainly below average even for the position. Even if he were +12 per season as a fielder, which is probably generous, he's only a bit better than average for his career when you give him a bump for position.

EDIT: Actually looking a bit more, he might have been an above average offensive SS in about half is seasons, especially if you include baserunning, but still that's not all that impressive for a HOF candidate.

I don't think he gets in, but your point is wrong.

You think only 1 season of .800 OPS isn't enough?

Brooks had only 2.

Ozzie Smith had none, and only 1 over .750.

Aparicio had none, and only 2 that were over .700.

The HOF is not about OPS.

Brooks played in a different era and was the best defensive 3B of all time. If played today and had only one (actually he had two) .800+ OPS season he wouldn't sniff the HOF.

Ozzie is probably the greatest defensive SS of all-time, but he's a bit overrated because folks don't account for how bad he was offensively.

Luis also played in a different era and is probably one of the worst HOFers, at least among those that played fairly recently.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think he gets in, but your point is wrong.

You think only 1 season of .800 OPS isn't enough?

Brooks had only 2.

Ozzie Smith had none, and only 1 over .750.

Aparicio had none, and only 2 that were over .700.

The HOF is not about OPS.

What's it about? Batting average?

The Hall-of-Fame is about honoring the best players in the sport. That is subjective (very, in the case of, say, Frankie Frisch), but eliminating a measure of greatness out of hand is like walking into a gunfight with fewer bullets then your opponent.

That said, if you go by OPS (or more specifically OPS+) he isn't too far off from someone like Smith or Aparicio.

The main difference is that Aparicio played in an era of light-hitting shortstops, and even Smith played at a time when Ripken and Trammel were the exception.

Visquel has played at the same time as Ripken and Garciaparra and Jeter and Rodriguez and Tejada. The position has changed, and the qualifications for greatness should change as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think he gets in, but your point is wrong.

You think only 1 season of .800 OPS isn't enough?

Brooks had only 2.

Ozzie Smith had none, and only 1 over .750.

Aparicio had none, and only 2 that were over .700.

The HOF is not about OPS.

The HOF is about many things, OPS is a factor when considering players.

Have to account for era though, compare the guys to their peers. Ozzie has a better OPS+ than Vizquel, plus SS's are much better hitters in Omar's era than Ozzie's and Aparicio's. Brooks has a 104 OPS+.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ladies and gentlemen...the Keltner List!

1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball?

If they did, then they would have been more likely to have their sanity questioned than be taken seriously.

2. Was he the best player on his team?

I don't think anyone could say that, at least offensively. And he was usually a much-poorer offensive player than other teammates.

3. Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position?

You could make an argument over defense, but I don't think anyone would put him ahead of Ripken early or the great shortstops that have come around later.

4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?

From 1994 through 2001, he was the starting shortstop on a perennial playoff team (six division titles and two second-place finishes). With his defense, it is reasonable to say he had an impact.

5. Was he a good enough player that he could continue to play regularly after passing his prime?

Again, he has done so because of his defense.

6. Is he the very best player in baseball history who is not in the Hall of Fame?

No.

7. Are most players who have comparable career statistics in the Hall of Fame?

His top-three BBReference comparisons are Luis Aparicio, Ozzie Smith and Rabbit Maranville. There are several other Hall-of-Famers and a couple players with cases on his top-ten list.

8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?

For shortstops before the present era, sure.

9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?

His defensive reputation is rarely rivaled.

10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame but not in?

Alan Trammell and Jay Bell were better, at least offensively.

11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close?

He only had votes one year, 1999, and he finished 16th. It was probably also the only year he had any real chance.

12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the other players who played in this many go to the Hall of Fame?

He made three All-Star teams, going up against Ripken and others.

13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant?

No.

14. What impact did the player have on baseball history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?

No.

15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?

As far as I know.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think he gets in, but your point is wrong.

You think only 1 season of .800 OPS isn't enough?

Brooks had only 2.

Ozzie Smith had none, and only 1 over .750.

Aparicio had none, and only 2 that were over .700.

The HOF is not about OPS.

Nary a person in the HOF was voted in their due to their OPS. Nobody even heard of it much less viewed it at as the end all be all like some of these younger posters here see it. It just strikes me as hilariously funny when I see it, but what is even more laughable is when people get mad if you don't see it their way on it as being the holy grail of performance measurement. Nobody even paid any attention to it throughout most of the history of the game, yet now its all that. Just makes me laugh.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What's it about? Batting average?

The Hall-of-Fame is about honoring the best players in the sport. That is subjective (very, in the case of, say, Frankie Frisch), but eliminating a measure of greatness out of hand is like walking into a gunfight with fewer bullets then your opponent.

That said, if you go by OPS (or more specifically OPS+) he isn't too far off from someone like Smith or Aparicio.

The main difference is that Aparicio played in an era of light-hitting shortstops, and even Smith played at a time when Ripken and Trammel were the exception.

Visquel has played at the same time as Ripken and Garciaparra and Jeter and Rodriguez and Tejada. The position has changed, and the qualifications for greatness should change as well.

Totally disagree. Just because you think that way there are plenty other people who don't. You just love to make generalizations about a game that has stayed basically the same for a long time, albeit it with some variations that no doubt will come around full circle given time. One thing should never change and that is watering down the requirements to be enshrined in the HOF. It is not for the very good players it is for the best who ever played period.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There's a bunch of middle infielders in the Hall that Omar could compare himself to, but they played in much different eras when middle infielders walked softly and carried a small stick.

Omar has been a steady player for his generation who never would have made anyone's top 50 lists of current players. That said, he absolutely is not Hall worthy.

Had he played 30-50 years earlier, he might have made it, at least eventually thru the Veteran's Committee.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.




×
×
  • Create New...