Jump to content

Ichiro and 3000


DrungoHazewood

Recommended Posts

The other night Ichiro got his 3000th professional hit. Surprised there wasn't even a mention of it here. Of course most of the reason why is that 1,287 of them came in Japan. Still a very impressive feat for a 34-year-old. There's a legitimate chance he'll get 3000 major league hits, and some chance he'll break (with his combined numbers) Pete Rose's records for MLB hits (4256) and professional hits (4683).

What I'd really like to see one day is baseball-reference.com have a combined site that presented the complete records of as many players as possible, including their time in the US majors, affiliated minors, non-affiliated minors, and foreign leagues. Give us totals for each category, and grand totals. The baseball cube is pretty good for this, but has a lot of gaps. SABR has a minor league database that's in an early form, but trying to fill in the gaps for the US minors going back to the beginning of time. And I've heard rumors bb-ref is sitting on a ton of Japanese data, and plans on releasing it sometime in the future.

Major league numbers are great, of course. But other leagues have millions of wonderful stories to tell, too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 30
  • Created
  • Last Reply

It did get a metion on Sportscenter, so I'll give credit for that.

I think it is impossible to get any kind of truly accurate database for all of professional baseball, just because of the sheer number of teams that have existed at different times in different places with no one keeping track of things, or especially in the 1800s records being lost or destroyed.

Its like the trouble with Negro League stats, only multiplied.

It is a great idea to try and build, though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Don't ask me where I got this, since I clearly couldn't have put it together in the middle of the work day, but here's a list of the top players ranked by professional hits:

Rank	Name	         MLB	MLB Rk	Minors	Total	Missing1	Pete Rose	4256	1	427	4683	02	Ty Cobb     	4189	2	166	4355	13	Hank Aaron	3771	3	324	4095	04	Stan Musial	3630	4	371	4001	05	Tris Speaker	3514	5	451	3965	06	Julio Franco	2566	75	1376	3942	17	Paul Waner	3152	15	635	3787	08	C. Yastrzemski	3419	6	363	3782	09	Sam Crawford	2961	29	781	3742	410	Wade Boggs	3010	24	724	3734	011	Eddie Murray	3255	11	451	3706	012	R. Henderson	3055	20	650	3705	013	Cal Ripken	3184	13	463	3647	014	G. VanHaltren	2532	77	1037	3569	015	Jake Beckley	2930	T33	616	3546	116	Nap Lajoie	3242	12	303	3545	017	George Brett	3154	14	325	3479	018	Willie Mays	3283	10	179	3462	019	Cap Anson	2995	27	423	3418	020	Honus Wagner	3415	7	0	3415	021	Paul Molitor	3319	8	86	3405	022	Tony Gwynn	3141	17	246	3387	023	Jesse Burkett	2850	41	531	3381	024	Tony Perez	2732	50	617	3349	025	Rod Carew	3053	21	285	3338	026	Rafael Palmeiro	3020	23	303	3323	027	Eddie Collins	3312	9	7	3319	028	Al Simmons	2927	35	383	3310	029	Sam Rice	2987	28	289	3276	030	Frank Robinson	2943	30	331	3274	031	Al Oliver	2743	48	516	3259	032	Craig Biggio	3060	19	171	3231	033	Billy Williams	2711	56	510	3221	034	Robin Yount	3142	16	69	3211	035	Brooks Robinson	2848	42	361	3209	036	Vada Pinson	2757	46	449	3206	037	Lou Brock	3023	22	181	3204	038	Harold Baines	2866	40	335	3201	039	Goose Goslin	2735	49	460	3195	040	Roberto Alomar	2724	51	466	3190	041	Joe Medwick	2471	86	718	3189	042	Nellie Fox	2663	61	518	3181	043	Dave Parker	2712	55	457	3169	044	Zack Wheat	2884	36	283	3167	145	C. Gehringer	2839	43	323	3162	046	Lave Cross	2644	66	508	3152	047	Rogers Hornsby	2930	T33	215	3145	048	Tim Raines	2605	T68	524	3129	049	R.Maranville	2605	T68	515	3120	050	Dave Winfield	3110	18	0	3110	051	Isao Harimoto	0	N/A	3085	3085	052	Bill Buckner	2715	54	368	3083	053	George Sisler	2812	44	260	3072	054	Barry Bonds	2935	31	122	3057	055	Heinie Manush	2524	79	532	3056	056	Omar Vizquel	2631	67	423	3054	057	R. Clemente	3000	26	38	3038	058	Jimmy Ryan	2502	82	523	3025	059	Ichiro Suzuki	1726	??	1287	3013	060	Andre Dawson	2774	45	235	3009	061	Ted Williams	2654	64	354	3008	062	Al Kaline	3007	25	0	3007	063	Mickey Vernon	2495	83	511	3006	064	Doc Cramer	2705	57	289	2994	065	Lou Gehrig	2721	52	270	2991	066	Willie Keeler	2932	32	43	2975	067	Willie Davis	2564	76	407	2971	068	Fred McGriff	2490	84	465	2955	069	Luis Aparicio	2677	58	264	2941	070	Rusty Staub	2716	53	220	2936	071	H. Heilmann	2660	T62	262	2922	072	Steve Garvey	2599	70	311	2910	073	Babe Ruth	2873	39	28	2901	074	Katsuya Nomura	0	N/A	2901	2901	075	Frankie Frisch	2880	37	0	2880	076	Richie Ashburn	2574	74	305	2879	077	Mel Ott	        2876	38	0	2876	078	Luke Appling	2749	47	122	2871	079	Ted Simmons	2472	85	393	2865	080	Steve Finley	2548	78	284	2832	081	Joe Morgan	2517	80	307	2824	082	Buddy Bell	2514	81	292	2806	083	Max Carey	2665	60	121	2786	084	Sadaharu Oh	0	N/A	2786	2786	085	Reggie Jackson	2584	72	201	2785	086	Jimmie Foxx	2646	65	111	2757	087	Rogor Connor	2467	87	257	2724	288	George Davis	2660	T62	19	2679	089	Harry Hooper	2466	88	210	2676	090	Fred Clarke	2672	59	0	2672	091	Lloyd Waner	2459	90	187	2646	092	Ed Delahanty	2597	71	0	2597	093	Ernie Banks	2583	73	0	2583	094	Ozzie Smith	2460	89	87	2547	0

This does not include Negro League games, nor Winter League games. But it does include MLB, affiliated and non-affiliated minors, Japan, and Korea.

And I'm sure it has some mistakes and omissions. The missing column is the total number of minor league seasons where the player's records are missing. Usually from 100+ years ago.

From what I can tell, Ichiro! is 59th in all time professional hits at the age of 34. If he plays five more years and averages about 150 hits per year he'd rank around 10th. He needs to get 1671 hits to pass Pete Rose.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Major league numbers are great, of course. But other leagues have millions of wonderful stories to tell, too.

I agree with you on this, but there is just a huge inconsistency on how we deal with the Japanese league. For example, if Ichiro qualified for rookie of the year consideration his first year in the majors, then why should the hits in Japan count any more than hits other players get in the minors?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with you on this, but there is just a huge inconsistency on how we deal with the Japanese league. For example, if Ichiro qualified for rookie of the year consideration his first year in the majors, then why should the hits in Japan count any more than hits other players get in the minors?

They don't. As far as official records go. MLB sees MLB as the only game in the world, and everyone else as a two-bit minor league good for little besides supplying players to MLB.

I exaggerate, but only a bit.

I don't particularly care how people look at minor league numbers or Japanese numbers. I just find them fascinating. I see a huge continuum of baseball from the lowest pro levels through the majors, with few sharp dividing lines. I think the majors would do well to keep a set of major league records like they do now. But someone outside of the majors (SABR? International governing body? Someone else?) should keep professional record books that combine everything, and give credit to those whose very real accomplishments have been swept under the rug because they weren't sanctioned by MLB.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Don't ask me where I got this, since I clearly couldn't have put it together in the middle of the work day, but here's a list of the top players ranked by professional hits:

Very cool.

Is it easy or hard to add a column for hits-per-year?

(Ideally hits per full-time year, but I imagine that would be a major pain.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Since the colleges function in a limited way as minor leagues, we should include them too, for those players who didn't go pro immediately after high school. :)

Sorry, but it's difficult enough to compare players of different major league eras, without lumping in minor league statistics too. Combined stats are an interesting curiosity, but little more.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Since the colleges function in a limited way as minor leagues, we should include them too, for those players who didn't go pro immediately after high school. :)

Sorry, but it's difficult enough to compare players of different major league eras, without lumping in minor league statistics too. Combined stats are an interesting curiosity, but little more.

I think they're a lot more than a curiosity. There have been many, many teams and some leagues deemed "minor" that were (and are) better than some major leagues and major league teams.

I don't think a combined set of records or record book should take the place of a MLB one, but I think there should be one to supplement the MLB book.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have recently thought of starting an Ichiro - HOFer? thread. The guy definitely has the goods, but is his "split" career a hindrance? Do his Japanese League stats count on this side of the Pacific? Along with the amazing things he has done here?

I personally think he's a lock. First ballot. ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have recently thought of starting an Ichiro - HOFer? thread. The guy definitely has the goods, but is his "split" career a hindrance? Do his Japanese League stats count on this side of the Pacific? Along with the amazing things he has done here?

I personally think he's a lock. First ballot. ;)

I think Ichiro's situation is sort of analogous to players like George and Harry Wright, Candy Cummings, and others whose careers began before there was such a thing as major league baseball. Or, maybe like Negro Leaguers such as Larry Doby, or Roy Campanella, or maybe Satchel Paige, who were in mid-career before the color line was broken. (Edit: I originally said Minnie Minoso, but then it occurred to me that the HOF voters haven't realized his greatness yet.)

They played baseball very, very well at the highest level they were allowed to play. When it became possible to move to MLB they did. And the Hall of Fame let them in based on their overall accomplishments.

Yes, Ichiro is a little different, in that he could have come to the US if he really, really, really had wanted to. But it would have taken some steps that I'd find unreasonable - like him retiring forever from Japanese Baseball. He, or anyone in his position, was going to think it was ridiculous to give up his fame, status, salary, and livelihood in their home country and culture forever to play major league baseball.

As a player he's one of those odd Jeter-like players who are both over- and underrated at the same time. He's not often been a top hitter in the majors. But as an overall player, he's pretty great. Speed, defense, good baserunning and high percentage basestealing, and about as durable as anyone since Cal. And a completely unique, popular, groundbreaking player.

I'd certainly vote him in.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rookie of the year, MVP, 7 gold gloves, 2 batting titles, all star game MVP, 7 straight seasons with 200 hits. I vote yes.

Let's also not forget that he has hit at a .331 average over his 8 seasons. The only recent players in that league are Tony Gwynn @ .338 and Wade Boggs @ .328

Were he to retire today he would end up ranking tied for 21st All-Time for BA.

Oh, BTW I would vote for him to get in if I had a vote.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.




×
×
  • Create New...