A couple of thoughts about our current catchers and Adley Rutschman

[Sessh]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

No.

People who have had concussions in the past are at an increased risk of further damage.  His actual risk level was higher.   That would be how Roberts managed to re-injure himself sliding into a base.  No one thinks of sliding into a base as a dangerous activity right?

 

I think we are done here, I'm not getting off my position that it is unseemly at best to remove Rutschman from the catcher position on the basis of the risk of head trauma.

Yes I am aware of that, but all catchers are at an increased risk of being in that position eventually. You're just lining them up for target practice and when one goes down, we'll just put another one up. They are all at increased risk of head trauma.

I already said earlier in the discussion that I am not saying Rutschman should never catch again. What I said was that I didn't want him there full time. If we don't have a strong option at catcher when he is ready, then he should be the catcher. If we do, then I don't think he should be if it can be helped especially if we lack a solid first base option. I don't want him to abandon catching, but I do want his versatility to be a factor in what happens. Any time you can have a guy who can play more than one position at the major league level, it's a huge plus.

Anyway, fair enough. Agree to disagree.

[Sessh]

4 minutes ago, Ruzious said:

Lol, is that last comment intended to make any sense whatsoever?

Did yours? Why would you factor that in to any decision on where to play someone? It's about the team, not playing for individual accomplishments or managing thinking "Hmm, how should I play this guy so he has a better chance to make the HOF?" If Rutschman can hit as well as we all hope he can, he will be a perennial all star regardless of where he plays and will be in the HOF either way. As you stated, it's way too early to be talking about this, but it's also way too early to be using this as some reference point when deciding where to play him.

[Sessh]

1 minute ago, Cy Bundy said:

I thought Muss was a team first guy until he made the Hall, now I can’t help but wonder if it was really all about him.

Yeah that's totally what I was saying. You manage your team in a way that gives the team the best chance to win day in and day out. You don't manage the team with potential future HOF inductions in mind day in and day out.

[Ruzious]

6 minutes ago, Sessh said:

Did yours? Why would you factor that in to any decision on where to play someone? It's about the team, not playing for individual accomplishments or managing thinking "Hmm, how should I play this guy so he has a better chance to make the HOF?" If Rutschman can hit as well as we all hope he can, he will be a perennial all star regardless of where he plays and will be in the HOF either way. As you stated, it's way too early to be talking about this, but it's also way too early to be using this as some reference point when deciding where to play him.

This is an idiotic conversation.  

[Sessh]

1 minute ago, Ruzious said:

This is an idiotic conversation.  

It sure is.

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, Cy Bundy said:

A guy in position to make the hof can set a bad example for the community, it’s not all about baseball, think of the children in Azerbaijan who don’t have a hall of fame, or even a hall of mediocrity. It makes you think. 

http://stats.ioinformatics.org/halloffame/AZE

[foxfield]

1 hour ago, Sessh said:

Sure it is, but don't pretend like we won't be locking him up longer than six years if he is as advertised. Getting 15 years is far better than 8-10 or less.. unless you only want him for six years? I doubt the new management will be letting him slip away like the previous regime did with Manny. Of course, if Rutschman is no good, this is all moot. I highly doubt that will be the outcome, though.

Someone has to do play the position. I never said it was "fine", it's an act of prudence. If someone must do it, I would rather it not be my best player if I can help it.

It's about what's best for the team not what gives a player a better chance of making the HOF.

While the conversation has gotten a little off track. I don’t think people are really that far off. There are known risks and and some of them are controllable and some are not. It’s sinoly part of the game. And I agree with the bolded part above. I’d rather my best player not be the one taking a higher level of risk. 

It seems to me that the solution here is to draft and develop or sign some international players who are better than the catcher. Would it be ok to play the new switch hitting HOF catcher if he is not the best player?  If he’s the fourth best player I think that bodes well for the O’s. 

I am of course being facetious. But have enjoyed the discussion here...

[Ruzious]

10 hours ago, Sessh said:

It sure is.

Sorry I was too harsh last night. My bad.  

[Tony-OH]

While I understand the injury concerns with Rutschman catching, I have to agree with the comment that said if that was a major concern then you draft another player. At the end of the day, Rutschman is a very good defensive catcher and I doubt Elias drafted him #1 overall just because of his bat. Vaughn's bat may play better in the big leagues so if you are going off pure bat, I would imagine Vaughn would have gotten the nod.

I do think some are making too big of a deal with catcher's getting concussions. I also think too many people make a big deal over someone getting their "bell rung" and needing a break or maybe coming out of one game. It's really the next few days that should determine the severity or the :"concussion". If you feel fine the next day or in a few minutes, then you are fine.

Hell, if I had undergone "concussion training" every time I got my bell rung growing up and even in the Army when I was jumping out of planes after landing hard when it was windy, I would have spent more time under concussion observation then actually living.

CTE is serious and I do think multiple serious concussions are a problem, but catchers have been taking balls of masks for the last 100 or so years or more and I haven't heard of many catchers suffereing from what we know now as CTE.

Then again, listening to Dempsey's "analysis" after games does give me pause!

[Sessh]

5 hours ago, Ruzious said:

Sorry I was too harsh last night. My bad.  

No problem at all. :)

[Sessh]

3 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

I do think some are making too big of a deal with catcher's getting concussions. I also think too many people make a big deal over someone getting their "bell rung" and needing a break or maybe coming out of one game. It's really the next few days that should determine the severity or the :"concussion". If you feel fine the next day or in a few minutes, then you are fine.

Hell, if I had undergone "concussion training" every time I got my bell rung growing up and even in the Army when I was jumping out of planes after landing hard when it was windy, I would have spent more time under concussion observation then actually living.

CTE is serious and I do think multiple serious concussions are a problem, but catchers have been taking balls of masks for the last 100 or so years or more and I haven't heard of many catchers suffereing from what we know now as CTE.

Then again, listening to Dempsey's "analysis" after games does give me pause!

You're not necessarily fine as a blow to the head does not have to produce any symptoms at all in order to cause a brain injury. When you were growing up, I don't think we knew nearly what we do now about brain injuries. There weren't lawyers ready to sue the army for not treating concussion injuries more seriously. Multiple blows to the head, whether they cause a concussion or not, contributes to a higher risk of CTE. Some concussions don't even have symptoms if they are minor enough.

However, even if head injuries to catchers are not going to produce frequent occurrences of CTE, they can certainly significantly alter if not end their careers. It's an unfortunate fact of life for a catcher. You shouldn't have brought up Dempsey though because it invalidates the rest of your post. lol

Seriously though, I do understand where you're coming from. I just don't think we should be looking to the past for guidance on how we should deal with things now. We know more now. We know how serious brain injuries and concussions are especially after you've had the first one. We can't go back to looking the other way when someone takes a blow to the head like that. We're talking about getting hit in the mask with a baseball traveling over 90mph or being hit in the head with a bat. I don't think the way we deal with this stuff now makes anyone soft in any way. Considering the extremely high rate of suicide among veterans and the high incidence of CTE, I think the military has it's own concussion crisis which should be taken more seriously, not less. Brain injuries are no joke. It's a fragile organ that is easily injured which is why it's encased in a skull and can produce lasting and disastrous symptoms if it does get injured.

So, I don't agree with the sentiment that we are "making too big a deal" with people taking blows to the head whether in baseball, the army or otherwise. We didn't know we should have been looking for this stuff decades ago or that it was even a big deal. I'm sure there was a lot of CTE in former NHL players as well though the NHL has gotten much tougher when it comes to hits to the head which is great. I'm not sure the catcher situation in baseball has a solution aside from moving the catcher back a few inches which I'm not sure is a great idea either. I'm not sure how that would affect pitchers or umpiring, though. MLB will come up with something eventually.

[Redskins Rick]

3 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

While I understand the injury concerns with Rutschman catching, I have to agree with the comment that said if that was a major concern then you draft another player. At the end of the day, Rutschman is a very good defensive catcher and I doubt Elias drafted him #1 overall just because of his bat. Vaughn's bat may play better in the big leagues so if you are going off pure bat, I would imagine Vaughn would have gotten the nod.

I do think some are making too big of a deal with catcher's getting concussions. I also think too many people make a big deal over someone getting their "bell rung" and needing a break or maybe coming out of one game. It's really the next few days that should determine the severity or the :"concussion". If you feel fine the next day or in a few minutes, then you are fine.

Hell, if I had undergone "concussion training" every time I got my bell rung growing up and even in the Army when I was jumping out of planes after landing hard when it was windy, I would have spent more time under concussion observation then actually living.

CTE is serious and I do think multiple serious concussions are a problem, but catchers have been taking balls of masks for the last 100 or so years or more and I haven't heard of many catchers suffereing from what we know now as CTE.

Then again, listening to Dempsey's "analysis" after games does give me pause!

When my nephew was playing high level travel ball in SC, his coach put him at catcher, said son, unless you are a true 5 tool talent, if you want to play pro ball, your best chance is at catcher, as the demand is high, and the supply is lower than the other positions.

He got to High School, being the biased uncle I was, I thought he was pretty good, but as he went to the college, the players just kept getting better, when he decided, he wasn't cut out to be a professional ball player. But, even at that early age, his body had taken a minor beating.

[Ruzious]

48 minutes ago, Sessh said:

No problem at all.

Thanks my friend.  

[Aglets]

Elias has already made comments about AR possibly moving to another position and he hasnt even signed his contract yet.  I dont think we need to worry about him being a full time catcher like Wieters was.  He will likely split duties with someone.