Third base versus short stop

[HowAboutThat]

I have a question about the skill sets a required for success at the two positions. Shortstop needs more range, but third-base requires a stronger arm doesn’t it? What are the other significant defense differences between the two positions?

I ask because there has been a little bit of discussion about whether Henderson can stick at short, or will need to move to third. Also, would that explain why Manny was better at third than he was at short?

[LookinUp]

I'd say range and agility. SS makes more plays on the move and while moving different directions than 3B. I'm not sure what others would say about arm strength, but I know it's also very important at SS. 

[ChuckS]

Manny has below average range for a MLB SS.  For 3B he has excellent range/reaction time.  

I feel a strong arm is equally as important at both positions.  

[MarCakes21]

The talk is that at 3rd base, you move in an X, back left/back right/forward left/forward right.  At SS, you have to move more laterally, and make longer runs for a ball, rather than reactionary movements.  So a fuller frame, while maybe able to react the same, you may not be as "fast" once you fill out that is needed for the SS postion

[Jammer7]

I’m addition to what others have already said:

At 3B, first step quickness and a strong arm are huge. Still need soft hands, and agility important on bunts and such. 

At SS, should ideally be the strongest arm and ability to release the ball from a variety of angles with accuracy. Double plays, OF cuts and such make the need for a strong arm beyond just plays in the hole. Soft hands, great feet, At least a 60 arm, exceptional range, quick release, and a high baseball IQ are ideal. Makes you appreciate what Cal did for so many years in that he was remarkably agile for a large fella and so very well prepared each day. 

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

5 minutes ago, Jammer7 said:

I’m addition to what others have already said:

At 3B, first step quickness and a strong arm are huge. Still need soft hands, and agility important on bunts and such. 

At SS, should ideally be the strongest arm and ability to release the ball from a variety of angles with accuracy. Double plays, OF cuts and such make the need for a strong arm beyond just plays in the hole. Soft hands, great feet, At least a 60 arm, exceptional range, quick release, and a high baseball IQ are ideal. Makes you appreciate what Cal did for so many years in that he was remarkably agile for a large fella and so very well prepared each day. 

Thanks you said this better than I would have. 3B quick twitch reflexes are vital, less so than range because you are 90 feet from home plate, and need to be able to react fast when the ball is hit at you. It's called the hot corner for a reason.

Shortstop you also need quick reflexes, but good range and positioning is key. And you need a strong arm for both positions. 

[Sessh]

The skillsets are almost identical IMO, but I will echo some of the points here. Range is more important at SS, but SS's also don't have to worry about bunts. Reflexes are more important for third base and if a ball gets past the third baseman, it's likely a double vs. a single if it gets past the SS. First base is also this way. With 3B and SS, the same skills are required with slightly more or less emphasis on individual skills.

I think a 3B transitioning to SS would have more trouble than a SS transitioning to 3B. SS also has to worry about stolen base attempts and turning double plays. There's more that goes into being a SS, but a good third baseman turns potential doubles into outs and foils most bunt attempts. I think it ultimately evens out. Both are important, but I think a 3B with average ability would cost the team more runs than SS with the same ability just because I think the demand on reflexes is much higher than average at third base and the consequences of only being average would mean more balls going down the line or into left field. Just spit-balling, nothing scientific here.

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

19 minutes ago, Sessh said:

The skillsets are almost identical IMO, but I will echo some of the points here. Range is more important at SS, but SS's also don't have to worry about bunts. Reflexes are more important for third base and if a ball gets past the third baseman, it's likely a double vs. a single if it gets past the SS. First base is also this way. With 3B and SS, the same skills are required with slightly more or less emphasis on individual skills.

I think a 3B transitioning to SS would have more trouble than a SS transitioning to 3B. SS also has to worry about stolen base attempts and turning double plays. There's more that goes into being a SS, but a good third baseman turns potential doubles into outs and foils most bunt attempts. I think it ultimately evens out. Both are important, but I think a 3B with average ability would cost the team more runs than SS with the same ability just because I think the demand on reflexes is much higher than average at third base and the consequences of only being average would mean more balls going down the line or into left field. Just spit-balling, nothing scientific here.

Manny is case in point after playing 3B for 5-6 years he couldn't get to an elite level defensivley at SS. If Manny played SS his whole career, I have little doubt he would have been an elite fielder, but you have to stick with it. Manny's muscle memory is impacted from playing at 3B, plus he bulked up and you can get away with that more as a 3B.

And when Manny switched from SS to 3B as a rookie, it took him very little time to learn how to play at a gold glove level.

[DrungoHazewood]

In softball I'd often play shortstop despite an arm that scouts graded out as a -3 on the 20-80 scale.  I was okay at it for a while.  I'd play shallow and hurry everything.

But at third I couldn't play far enough back on the outfield grass.  Every time a 300 pound RFer came up I had the fear of God in me.  At least from my very limited experience reaction time and first step/first thought quickness is dramatically more important at third than short.

[BohKnowsBmore]

3 hours ago, DrungoHazewood said:

In softball I'd often play shortstop despite an arm that scouts graded out as a -3 on the 20-80 scale.  I was okay at it for a while.  I'd play shallow and hurry everything.

But at third I couldn't play far enough back on the outfield grass.  Every time a 300 pound RFer came up I had the fear of God in me.  At least from my very limited experience reaction time and first step/first thought quickness is dramatically more important at third than short.

In part I feel like this is where Manny excels at 3B. He seems to have innate baseball fielding instincts that let him react to plays at 3B and make it look easy. 

[El Gordo]

SS requires the stronger arm as well as greater range and agility. Brooks never had the arm for SS and he was the best 3B ever.

[Chavez Ravine]

We might be entering the age of the super utility infielder where traditional positional archetypes are more fluid. I thought this article on the changing nature of shortstops was interesting (yes there is a section on Cal in there):

https://www.theringer.com/mlb/2019/3/26/18280836/shortstop-offense-boom-francisco-lindor-carlos-correa-corey-seager

Quote

The modern game can help those now playing the position amid these strategic changes. The rise in both the shift, specifically, and analytics and defensive positioning based on data, broadly, has seemingly eased shortstop defense—at least from incredibly hard to just mostly hard.

Quote

So flexible is modern defensive philosophy that some players with no meaningful experience are moving to shortstop at the MLB level, in a reverse of the traditional slide down the defensive spectrum. The Cardinals’ Paul DeJong played second, third, catcher, and right field but not shortstop in his final college season at Illinois State, and he played almost exclusively as a third baseman—where he was listed upon being drafted—through his first two minor league seasons.

Quote

 

It’s unclear at this point, based on publicly available statistics, what kind of impact this jamming of untraditional pegs into an archetypal hole has on defense overall. Disentangling individual defensive performance in the infield from all the contextual changes brought on by modern tactics is a chore. Against unshifted defenses, at least, batting average on grounders and short liners into the typical shortstop area hasn’t budged over the past decade, according to data provided by Baseball Info Solutions.

Moreover, many teams that have grown more liberal with shortstop defense are those considered to possess analytical savvy. Clubs like the Rays and Cardinals have embraced heterodox shortstop tactics by considering moving unfamiliar players to the position, while the Astros and Dodgers have allowed larger shortstops with better arms than range factors to remain there instead of moving them to another infield spot. Those actions are clues, if nothing else, that smart teams think the push for more offense makes analytical sense.

 

 

[sevastras]

7 hours ago, DrungoHazewood said:

In softball I'd often play shortstop despite an arm that scouts graded out as a -3 on the 20-80 scale.  I was okay at it for a while.  I'd play shallow and hurry everything.

But at third I couldn't play far enough back on the outfield grass.  Every time a 300 pound RFer came up I had the fear of God in me.  At least from my very limited experience reaction time and first step/first thought quickness is dramatically more important at third than short.

In my softball days, A league in a minor league city with Dominican teams that no longer played minor league baseball, we had a SS that was left handed.  Despite my arguing with the coach every spring, he still stuck at short.  Coaches son, so there was that.  Left hand throwing SS should be against the rules at all levels.  But if you want to know just how far you were from playing pro ball, just play against the fall outs from the minors.  (thinking of years ago when Collin Cowherd said that something like 70% of sports radio listeners thought they could have played pro sports if it werent for a coach, or injury or whatever.

[DrungoHazewood]

8 hours ago, sevastras said:

In my softball days, A league in a minor league city with Dominican teams that no longer played minor league baseball, we had a SS that was left handed.  Despite my arguing with the coach every spring, he still stuck at short.  Coaches son, so there was that.  Left hand throwing SS should be against the rules at all levels.  But if you want to know just how far you were from playing pro ball, just play against the fall outs from the minors.  (thinking of years ago when Collin Cowherd said that something like 70% of sports radio listeners thought they could have played pro sports if it werent for a coach, or injury or whatever.

In my one year of little league I started out as a shortstop but eventually got moved to first base of all places, probably because I was really good at digging balls out of the dirt.  We had a somewhat sadistic older kid on the street who'd teach the younger kids to pick it at first by repeatedly throwing 80mph balls that bounced two feet in front of us.

Anyway, I was replaced at short by a lefty.  He was pretty good.  I think that at lower levels the talent spread is so great that a really good lefty infielder is better than a so-so righty infielder.  You can make that half-turn pretty quick and throwing 20 mph faster than the next guy compensates for it.