Not to be whiny, but can we just cut Richie Martin loose already?

[interloper]

3 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Jackson has a .684 OPS in the hitter-friendly PCL, and has struck out 65 times in 208 plate appearances.    

I have to say, the advanced metrics hate Martin’s defense a lot more than my eyes do.    I don’t see him as plus, but I don’t see him as much below average, either.    Certainly not good enough to carry his bat.

I feel like the defensive mistakes he has made are all pretty excusable for a rookie player out of AA. Like, whatever discrepancies he has to me is more a factor of that than his actual athletic ability to play the position. 

[Ohfan67]

2 hours ago, interloper said:

I feel like the defensive mistakes he has made are all pretty excusable for a rookie player out of AA. Like, whatever discrepancies he has to me is more a factor of that than his actual athletic ability to play the position. 

I hear you, but he played three seasons of college ball and basically 3.5 years in the minors before the O's acquired him. Is the defensive jump to the majors really that big of a difference? It could be...I'm thinking out loud. 

[OFFNY]

1 minute ago, Ohfan67 said:

 

I hear you, but he played three seasons of college ball and basically 3.5 years in the minors before the Orioles acquired him. Is the defensive jump to the majors really that big of a difference ??? It could be ........ I'm thinking out loud. 

 

o

 

This reminds me of something that I read a book back in 1989 ...... Say it Ain't So, Joe: The True Story of Shoeless Joe Jackson and the Black Sox,  by Donald Gropman.

 

After Jackson was kicked out of Major League baseball following the 1920 season, he continued to play semi-pro baseball in much lesser leagues. He continued to rake on offense, but that could be written off as him being a big fish in a small pond, due to the pitchers/pitching that he was facing. But Shoeless Joe continued to play amazing defense, also. Defense in baseball, unlike offense, is universal, and it doesn't matter where you are playing and/or who your opponent is. Defense in baseball is simply the ball and the player, and a running/diving catch by an outfielder on a sinking line drive is just as impressive in high school ball or Rookie League ball as it is in the Major Leagues.

 

o

[OFFNY]

9 minutes ago, Ohfan67 said:

 

I hear you, but he played three seasons of college ball and basically 3.5 years in the minors before the Orioles acquired him. Is the defensive jump to the majors really that big of a difference ??? It could be ........ I'm thinking out loud. 

 

 

 

6 minutes ago, OFFNY said:

o

 

This reminds me of something that I read a book back in 1989 ...... Say it Ain't So, Joe: The True Story of Shoeless Joe Jackson and the Black Sox,  by Donald Gropman.

 

After Jackson was kicked out of Major League baseball following the 1920 season, he continued to play semi-pro baseball in much lesser leagues. He continued to rake on offense, but that could be written off as him being a big fish in a small pond, due to the pitchers/pitching that he was facing. But Shoeless Joe continued to play amazing defense, also. Defense in baseball, unlike offense, is universal, and it doesn't matter where you are playing and/or who your opponent is. Defense in baseball is simply the ball and the player, and a running/diving catch by an outfielder on a sinking line drive is just as impressive in high school ball or Rookie League ball as it is in the Major Leagues.

 

o

o

 

That said, I suppose that it is possible that there may be a bit of a difference (particularly for infielders) in the degree of difficulty of playing your position if the Major League batters are hitting the ball a little harder than are the AAA, AA, Advanced-A, and/or the Division-I college batters are ........ even still, great defense in baseball is great defense, no matter what level you are playing at.

 

o

[George]

The O's won a ton of games with a great fielding SS, Mark Belanger, who was a poor hitter. Before that, the O's were a respectable team with Willy MIranda. When Ron Hansen,  a good fielder and hitter, arrived in the late fifties,  he replaced Miranda. Martin should stay at short until a good fielder and hitter is added to the O's nest. A baseball team is unwatchable without excellent fielding up the middle. 

[weams]

3 hours ago, Frobby said:

Jackson has a .684 OPS in the hitter-friendly PCL, and has struck out 65 times in 208 plate appearances.    

I have to say, the advanced metrics hate Martin’s defense a lot more than my eyes do.    I don’t see him as plus, but I don’t see him as much below average, either.    Certainly not good enough to carry his bat.

Advanced defensive metrics are flawed. Badly. 

[weams]

23 minutes ago, Ohfan67 said:

I hear you, but he played three seasons of college ball and basically 3.5 years in the minors before the O's acquired him. Is the defensive jump to the majors really that big of a difference? It could be...I'm thinking out loud. 

I feel like  today's defensive metrics are a poor way to evaluate players in the field. 

[weams]

3 hours ago, interloper said:

I think saying Richie Martin can't field well is pretty hyperbolic. He can field well. He's not fielding as lights out as we'd hoped. 

I'll buy this. 

[weams]

3 hours ago, FanSince88 said:

The fact that he has such a minus glove is way more disappointing than his sub-.500 OPS.  I tip my cap to the A's for foreseeing this and leaving him unprotected in the Rule 5.  It might not be too early to say that we could have had better results giving someone else a chance -- perhaps even Drew Jackson.  Super-frustrating when a putative glove-first guy can't even field well.  

I think that he has played major league shortstop as a first year player for a total investment of 650,000 is pretty spectacular. And I'd be fine if he were release tomorrow for someone who was better for the same exact money. 

[DrungoHazewood]

3 hours ago, interloper said:

I think saying Richie Martin can't field well is pretty hyperbolic. He can field well. He's not fielding as lights out as we'd hoped. 

It would be one thing if his UZR/150 was average or a few runs below average.  But it's -18.  By Total Zone he's -11, by DRS he's -21.  There's some variation there, but the variation is between "well below average" and "37-year-old Ty Wigginton". I'd like some reasonable explanation of why his metrics are sub-Jeter but he's really pretty good.  

In any case, it's a Herculean task to turn an explanation of those metrics into a belief that his glove can carry a .500 OPS bat.

[Camden_yardbird]

1 hour ago, OFFNY said:

 

 

o

 

That said, I suppose that it is possible that there may be a bit of a difference (particularly for infielders) in the degree of difficulty of playing your position if the Major League batters are hitting the ball a little harder than are the AAA, AA, Advanced-A, and/or the Division-I college batters are ........ even still, great defense in baseball is great defense, no matter what level you are playing at.

 

o

This is a lot tougher to answer than you would think.  Among other things exit velocity does not have quite the same correlation you would think it would have with a hitters BABiP. 

The classic example of this is Pedro Alvarez who could hit the ball plenty hard, but did so on the ground more often than not.  The fact is major league players are better at getting the ball up and hitting it on a favorable vector. 

That said, I did some some light poking around statcast.  I premised that a harder hit (higher exit velocity) ball is harder to field than a slower hit ball.

According to statcast the average EV in the major leagues is 68 mph.  Seems very low, and doesnt really tell us much.  The median average of the top 100 hitters for EV is 91.3, and a hearty 90.0 even median average for the top 200.

Minor league stacast data is hard to pin down but I found this article highlighting the top 6 2018 minor leaguers for EV.

http://actasports.com/statoftheweekhardest-hitting-minor-leaguers-according-to-synthetic-statcast/

Looking at this data the top 6 averaged in the high 89 mph EV range.  That tells me that even just okay hitters in MLB are hitting harder balls than the top minor leaguers.

Take this info for what its worth, but if you ascribe to the premise that a harder hit ball is harder to field then you are buying in that its quite a bit harder to field in general at the MLB level.

This is one of those instances where a data driven analysis is perhapsbnot the best,and nmore traditional analysis provides a better answer.  Go ask a scout.

[Frobby]

3 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

It would be one thing if his UZR/150 was average or a few runs below average.  But it's -18.  By Total Zone he's -11, by DRS he's -21.  There's some variation there, but the variation is between "well below average" and "37-year-old Ty Wigginton". I'd like some reasonable explanation of why his metrics are sub-Jeter but he's really pretty good.  

In any case, it's a Herculean task to turn an explanation of those metrics into a belief that his glove can carry a .500 OPS bat.

Admittedly, I don’t watch every inning of every game these days.   But when I watch Martin play I don’t get the feeling that he’s well below average in any aspect of defense.   It kind of mystifies me that all three public advanced metrics dislike his defense so much.  But that said, that doesn’t mean I think they’re wrong.    Usually when all three point strongly in one direction, there’s something there.   

[weams]

https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/running_splits?type=raw&bats=&year=2019&position=&team=BAL&min=10

[weams]

https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/sprint_speed_leaderboard?year=2019&position=&team=BAL&min=10

[eddie83]

21 hours ago, Frobby said:

Admittedly, I don’t watch every inning of every game these days.   But when I watch Martin play I don’t get the feeling that he’s well below average in any aspect of defense.   It kind of mystifies me that all three public advanced metrics dislike his defense so much.  But that said, that doesn’t mean I think they’re wrong.    Usually when all three point strongly in one direction, there’s something there.   

I still watch all the time and I agree with this. Not saying he has been flawless but his glove looks much better to me than the metrics. 

Have to wonder if his best bet to stay a big leaguer is to try and be a super utility player like a Wilkerson. I see a good glove but not a great one. 

We will have to see what they do with him next year.