We are Number Eight

[theocean]

19 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

That's not really fair.  Dan had his faults, but if he brought talent into the system that's reflected in the new rankings he deserves part of the credit.

DD should get credit. Elias drafted Adley 1st overall. Doesn't take a genius to make that move.

[Roll Tide]

2 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

EdRod was the third ranked pitcher in the organization when traded so maybe him?

Please! He was not a top daft selection or a highly touted international prospect. He was in the top 5 in one of the worst systems in the majors for most of the last 30 years. Was he a top 100? NO ... he wasn't a top prospect 

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

Please! He was not a top daft selection or a highly touted international prospect. He was in the top 5 in one of the worst systems in the majors for most of the last 30 years. Was he a top 100? NO ... he wasn't a top prospect 

https://www.camdenchat.com/2014/1/24/5340622/mlb-top-100-prospects-orioles-bundy-gausman-rodriguez

 

[Roll Tide]

15 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

https://www.camdenchat.com/2014/1/24/5340622/mlb-top-100-prospects-orioles-bundy-gausman-rodriguez

 

Noted ..... are there's any other examples? 

 

I remember the Orioles being in pennant races , the Buck got all the credit for , and having trouble picking up anybody decent due to everybody on,y being interested in Bundy/KG, and alnost nobody else

[Camden_yardbird]

2 hours ago, Frobby said:

Adam Hall?

200/30= 6.7 top 200 players per team.    If all we have is 6, that’s not particularly impressive.   But 5 in the top 100 is.

Somewhat ironically the Orioles farm system looks top heavy now.

[Can_of_corn]

5 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

Noted ..... are there's any other examples? 

 

I remember the Orioles being in pennant races , the Buck got all the credit for , and having trouble picking up anybody decent due to everybody on,y being interested in Bundy/KG, and alnost nobody else

It wasn't my point to begin with, I was just saying he could count as a top prospect depending on how you judge those things.

[Can_of_corn]

2 hours ago, Frobby said:

Adam Hall?

200/30= 6.7 top 200 players per team.    If all we have is 6, that’s not particularly impressive.   But 5 in the top 100 is.

I don't know who number 199 and 200 are but I bet I'd rather have Hays and Gunnar.

[spiritof66]

4 hours ago, Philip said:

Oh I don’t deny that some Dan picks still have possibilities. Grenier doesn’t look like he should have been picked where he was certainly, Mountcastle doesn’t have a position, and Harvey has been injured his whole career, but there are some guys who still have potential.

The issue isn’t really whether Dan did or didn’t draft well (although I don’t think he did) but that he traded top prospects, gave up draft picks, traded away draft picks and made no attempt to plan for the future. Some of that was on the FO, but enough of it was on Dan.

I disagree that the decision to run the team on a "win now" basis came from Duquette. I can't prove it, but I was and am completely convinced that it came from the owner. Trading draft picks and prospects was the only way for Duquette to implement that strategy. If you want to blame Duquette for some of the bad trades he made in implementing that strategy, that's fair. But I think it's clear that the decision to go in that direction, and go hard, came from the top.

In general, and with hindsight, I think that was the right strategy for the Orioles in 2010-16. I sometimes I am not entirely sure whether I saw playoff baseball in Baltimore or just imagined it, and that would not have been possible without a strategy to build a winner in those years. That push certainly hurt the team's ability to compete in the future, but that's what a "win now" strategy does unless (maybe) you're a very high-revenue team that has had all the talent spigots (amateur draft, international signings, and MLB free agents) flowing for some time, has done a good job with them, and is willing to forgo large profits.

The Orioles' "win-now" strategy, in my opinion, got out of control in two respects: waiting too long to give up on that strategy and trade the team's valuable players, and spending so much on the MLB payroll that there wasn't enough left to invest in international talent, scouting and analytics at a level comparable to what competitors were spending. I don't think you can fairly blame Duquette for that, but go ahead if you want to. I'm not sure it matters at this point.

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, spiritof66 said:

I disagree that the decision to run the team on a "win now" basis came from Duquette. I can't prove it, but I was and am completely convinced that it came from the owner.

 

I don't think Dan and Buck were against the idea.  I think both wanted a ring and were aware that they wouldn't be around for a rebuild.

[OFFNY]

o

 

A Look at the Orioles' Rise in the Baseball America Organization Rankings

(By Steve Melewski)

https://www.masnsports.com/steve-melewski/2019/07/a-look-at-the-orioles-rise-in-the-baseball-america-organization-rankings.html

 

o

[spiritof66]

Just now, Can_of_corn said:

I don't think Dan and Buck were against the idea.  I think both wanted a ring and were aware that they wouldn't be around for a rebuild.

Absolutely. That's what Duquette was hired to do, whether he disagreed with the strategy or not. No doubt he could have done a better job implementing the strategy, but he could have done a lot worse, too. (I don't believe he was involved in the bullpen decisions against the Jays. ) But I don't think it's fair to criticize him for trading draft choices and prospects to try to get to the playoffs. Criticize his bad trades for guys that didn't help the team in the near-term, but not for the strategy. That was going to be the strategy whether or not he embraced it, as he did. 

Duquette surely didn't agree with the Orioles being so stingy in the international market, and I think it's pretty clear he didn't agree with the Davis contract (and, it appears, other free-agent signings) or with waiting so long to put Manny et al. on the market. But that's what the owner wanted, so that's what the team did. 

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, spiritof66 said:

Absolutely. That's what Duquette was hired to do, whether he disagreed with the strategy or not. No doubt he could have done a better job implementing the strategy, but he could have done a lot worse, too. (I don't believe he was involved in the bullpen decisions against the Jays. ) But I don't think it's fair to criticize him for trading draft choices and prospects to try to get to the playoffs. Criticize his bad trades for guys that didn't help the team in the near-term, but not for the strategy. That was going to be the strategy whether or not he embraced it, as he did. 

Duquette surely didn't agree with the Orioles being so stingy in the international market, and I think it's pretty clear he didn't agree with the Davis contract (and, it appears, other free-agent signings) or with waiting so long to put Manny et al. on the market. But that's what the owner wanted, so that's what the team did. 

I'm completely OK with blaming him for trading the second round picks.  It was his poor budgeting that caused the O's to seek salary relief for Webb and Matusz.  If the call came from ownership than Dan should have been able to talk him out of it.  It isn't as if we are talking huge sums of money saved.  (also Matusz should have never been tendered a contract, that's on Dan)

[HowAboutThat]

1 hour ago, Roll Tide said:

What top prospect did he trade away.?

Zack Davies is the first name that comes to mind. Josh Hader too, but I don’t disagree with that trade at all. I think the Bud Norris was the best one he made

[Can_of_corn]

4 minutes ago, Philip said:

Zack Davies is the first name that comes to mind. Josh Hader too, but I don’t disagree with that trade at all. I think the Bud Norris was the best one he made

Hader was an intriguing name when he was traded.  He wasn't a top prospect.

[HowAboutThat]

44 minutes ago, spiritof66 said:

I disagree that the decision to run the team on a "win now" basis came from Duquette. I can't prove it, but I was and am completely convinced that it came from the owner. Trading draft picks and prospects was the only way for Duquette to implement that strategy. If you want to blame Duquette for some of the bad trades he made in implementing that strategy, that's fair. But I think it's clear that the decision to go in that direction, and go hard, came from the top.

In general, and with hindsight, I think that was the right strategy for the Orioles in 2010-16. I sometimes I am not entirely sure whether I saw playoff baseball in Baltimore or just imagined it, and that would not have been possible without a strategy to build a winner in those years. That push certainly hurt the team's ability to compete in the future, but that's what a "win now" strategy does unless (maybe) you're a very high-revenue team that has had all the talent spigots (amateur draft, international signings, and MLB free agents) flowing for some time, has done a good job with them, and is willing to forgo large profits.

The Orioles' "win-now" strategy, in my opinion, got out of control in two respects: waiting too long to give up on that strategy and trade the team's valuable players, and spending so much on the MLB payroll that there wasn't enough left to invest in international talent, scouting and analytics at a level comparable to what competitors were spending. I don't think you can fairly blame Duquette for that, but go ahead if you want to. I'm not sure it matters at this point.

Oh I don’t disagree at all that the win-now strategy came from the front office, I disagree with many of the moves that were made or not made. The Davies Trade was stupid. Trading two draft picks to eliminate a trifling amount of salary was stupid.The Snider trade was stupid, although what we gave up in that deal was not as substantial. Many of them were bad even at the time they were made. I also disagree with the ridiculous practice of waiting till January to do anything meaningful, Which is certainly been shown to be a poor MO.

Grant Brisbee Wrote a superb 2018(?) article about the Royals and Orioles, and he detailed every single transaction made by each team after 2014. Look for that article, it’s much more revealing than anything I can say.

I literally lost track of all the worthwhile guys we could’ve had at reasonable prices who signed quickly with other teams. When I mention that, the response is usually, “well maybe they didn’t want to sign with the Orioles“. It may be true, but it’s impossible that every single desirable and inexpensive free agent refused to play with the Orioles. It’s far more likely that the attempt wasn’t made, and if they were made, that just indicates A lack of ability, which brings us back. Anyway, Dan is gone, never to work again, not even for the Blue Jays.