Is Sisco Toast?

[wildcard]

10 minutes ago, MurphDogg said:

How come he can improve but Sisco can't? 

Sisco has a poor arm.  They can't teach him a stronger arm.

[MurphDogg]

2 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Sisco has a poor arm.  They can't teach him a stronger arm.

Sisco has an average arm, he threw out 9 of his first 18 at the MLB level.

He has average arm strength, but it plays down because poor footwork and an inconsistent release point that result in too many throws in the dirt and off-line. His 23 percent caught stealing rate this year, a below-average mark, is a career high.

Yes, he can still improve, per Hyde,

But there’s a lot of catchers who aren’t throwing guys out in the big leagues right now,” Hyde said. “It’s obviously an area where we’re going to continue to improve, and he’s still a young catcher learning his way in the big leagues. There’s some footwork/arm stuff that we can help clean up and get better.

It’s tough to do during a major league season. It’s tough to do while you’re catching guys. A lot of the stolen bases were, for me, weren’t on him, where there were big jumps or I feel like he didn’t have a chance on anyways. But it is an area where we will continue to work with him to improve.

[wildcard]

15 minutes ago, MurphDogg said:

Sisco has an average arm, he threw out 9 of his first 18 at the MLB level.

 

 

Yes, he can still improve, per Hyde,

 

His caught steal rate is now 15%.  And his throwing problems are not just on steals as we just saw.

I go back to what I said.  If Elias finds a better cheap talent at catcher Sisco may go this off season.

[MurphDogg]

3 minutes ago, wildcard said:

His caught steal rate is now 15%.  And his throwing problems are not just on steals as we just saw.

I go back to what I said.  If Elias finds a better cheap talent at catcher Sisco may go this off season.

Right, which points to flawed mechanics, which is fixable not a poor arm which is what you claim.

We'll see. Hopefully the analytics guys and coaches will be able to help him improve in the spring. As Hyde said, it is really hard to change mechanics during the season. I would be absolutely floored if he was released or traded for 25 cents on the dollar this offseason. The bat may yet play elsewhere, and the professionals haven't given up on him at catcher.

[Can_of_corn]

39 minutes ago, MurphDogg said:

How come he can improve but Sisco can't? 

Because it fits Wildcard's narrative.

[Frobby]

1 hour ago, wildcard said:

Elias is trying to improve the talent level in the organization.  Sisco's arm is poor.  He is not very good defensively.  That is the basics that are needed to be a good catcher.  He has had time in the majors for 2 seasons now.    If Elias sees a catcher that is cheap and has better talent I would not be surprised to see Sisco leave the organization.  No matter that he is still cheap.

Catchers being good defensively effects the pitching.   The O's will probably see some of the Bowie pitchers in the 2nd half next season.  Elias will want them to have the help of good catchers. 

I’d be really surprised if Sisco isn’t back.   He still has upside and has an option remaining.  

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I’d be really surprised if Sisco isn’t back.   He still has upside and has an option remaining.  

And he's cheap.

[weams]

4 hours ago, Aristotelian said:

The eye test says Sisco is terrible too.

Ok   But he can't be evaluated by data that included flawed d components. We don't have good maths.

[atomic]

26 minutes ago, MurphDogg said:

Right, which points to flawed mechanics, which is fixable not a poor arm which is what you claim.

We'll see. Hopefully the analytics guys and coaches will be able to help him improve in the spring. As Hyde said, it is really hard to change mechanics during the season. I would be absolutely floored if he was released or traded for 25 cents on the dollar this offseason. The bat may yet play elsewhere, and the professionals haven't given up on him at catcher.

He is 24.  He isnt going anywhere.  

[Frobby]

12 minutes ago, weams said:

Ok   But he can't be evaluated by data that included flawed d components. We don't have good maths.

Catcher’s a little different.    Sig stated the problem with the public metrics is they don’t account for positioning.    That’s not an issue at C.    I’m not saying that catcher stats don’t have their own problems.    They may, but positioning isn’t one of them.    

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, Frobby said:

Catcher’s a little different.    Sig stated the problem with the public metrics is they don’t account for positioning.    That’s not an issue at C.    I’m not saying that catcher stats don’t have their own problems.    They may, but positioning isn’t one of them.    

I'll take the issues with positioning over the issues with framing any day of the week.

On a side note, his framing must be grading out OK for his fWAR and bWAR to be similar.

[weams]

18 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Catcher’s a little different.    Sig stated the problem with the public metrics is they don’t account for positioning.    That’s not an issue at C.    I’m not saying that catcher stats don’t have their own problems.    They may, but positioning isn’t one of them.    

Right. And a Molina or someone got a 65 run saved by framing one year. 

https://www.theringer.com/2017/5/23/16045944/jonathan-lucroy-texas-rangers-pitch-framing-3bfa2f11ae4a

[weams]

19 minutes ago, weams said:

Right. And a Molina or someone got a 65 run saved by framing one year. 

https://www.theringer.com/2017/5/23/16045944/jonathan-lucroy-texas-rangers-pitch-framing-3bfa2f11ae4a

I do understand that each position has its own flawed defensive components that make cross positional evaluative very tenuous by data. Let's just go back to offensive data which is proven to be solid math and say so and so is better because he is a better defender. I can live with that for now. But soon we will have good data points on defense. I feel certain. 

[Frobby]

2 minutes ago, weams said:

I do understand that each position has its own flawed defensive components that make cross positional evaluative very tenuous by data. Let's just go back to offensive data which is proven to be solid math and say so and so is better because he is a better defender. I can live with that for now. But soon we will have good data points on defense. I feel certain. 

That’s a reasonable approach.    But I do suspect the framing metrics have come a long way in the last 6/7 years.   

For what it’s worth, Fangraphs has Sisco at -7.0 framing runs, Severino at -6.9.    BP has Sisco at -.8.1, Severino at -7.5.     So, pretty consistent for both measures and both pretty bad, if you believe these stats.

 

[wildcard]

22 minutes ago, vatech1994 said:

Please read that to yourself and tell me you realize how silly it is.  If he finds a better talent for less than ML minimum ready to contribute at the ML level, Elias would do that instead of paying Sisco more to do less. No kidding.  I hear rain is wet too.

The point is there won’t be anyone better available for ML minimum.  So, your statement is like me saying if I go on a date with Jennifer Aniston, she will definitely marry me.  The date won’t happen so I will never be wrong but so freaking what.

You're overthinking it.   

Since Elias has been GM he has add Alberto, Ruiz, Armstrong, Brooks, Eades, Wojo,  Shepherd, Blach, Martin, and Smith all for close to the minimum salary.  Some aren't very good but a few have helped the O's this season.    In each case Elias was trying to find a cheap player that is better than what he had.

I don't think the bar is very high to find a cheap catcher that is better than Sisco.  We will see how it turns out.  I think they tender Sicso but look for better talent over the off season.