Middle Infield, Addison Russell and the Redemption Song

[Tony-OH]

15 hours ago, Luke-OH said:

Whether or not you agree that signing Russell should be a PR nightmare, that doesn’t change the fact that it would be. 100%. I’m not sure exactly how you quantify the effects of a PR disaster, but if they think about signing him, they need to expect that and price the cost into the decision making process.

I’m against it personally, but if you are for it, you have to go eyes wide open into the situation, knowing the type of blowback it’d get.

I don't understand this line of thinking at all.. If you agree with the cold heartless approach of getting rid of good players in their prime to support their "strategic vision" then you need to get behind them acquiring anyone who can help further that strategic vision.

Addison Russel is a 26-year old SS with an upside. If he can rebuild his swing and hit well with the Orioles, he has value to this team in either the future or through potential trade flip.

Also, I don't see how Russell would be a nightmare PR move. Are their Orioles fans out there that are not going to support the team if he's acquired? Are you against people getting second chances when their actions and behaviors all indicate that he's "rehabilitated". If Hyde is ok with the move, does that make it easier for you to swallow? 

[MurphDogg]

9 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

I don't understand this line of thinking at all.. If you agree with the cold heartless approach of getting rid of good players in their prime to support their "strategic vision" then you need to get behind them acquiring anyone who can help further that strategic vision.

Addison Russel is a 26-year old SS with an upside. If he can rebuild his swing and hit well with the Orioles, he has value to this team in either the future or through potential trade flip.

Also, I don't see how Russell would be a nightmare PR move. Are their Orioles fans out there that are not going to support the team if he's acquired? Are you against people getting second chances when their actions and behaviors all indicate that he's "rehabilitated". If Hyde is ok with the move, does that make it easier for you to swallow? 

With as empty as the stadium will be next year, the boos that Russell gets when he comes to the plate will ring through loud and clear on television. I will make sure of it. Fans can support the team without supporting him. Many Cubs fans booed him and he was part of their World Series winning team, imagine how fans of a team that signed him as a mercenary, merely hoping to flip him for additional value with treat him.

Also, I need a citation on his actions and behavior indicating that he is rehabilitated. 

Even from a baseball standpoint, he was demoted to the minors last year because he didn't know the signs.

[Luke-OH]

1 minute ago, Tony-OH said:

I don't understand this line of thinking at all.. If you agree with the cold heartless approach of getting rid of good players in their prime to support their "strategic vision" then you need to get behind them acquiring anyone who can help further that strategic vision.

Addison Russel is a 26-year old SS with an upside. If he can rebuild his swing and hit well with the Orioles, he has value to this team in either the future or through potential trade flip.

Also, I don't see how Russell would be a nightmare PR move. Are their Orioles fans out there that are not going to support the team if he's acquired? Are you against people getting second chances when their actions and behaviors all indicate that he's "rehabilitated". If Hyde is ok with the move, does that make it easier for you to swallow? 

I'm not arguing whether there should or should not be a PR issue or what the line is for second chances. The point of that post is that if you do it as a cold calculating move, you have to be cognizant of the ramifications of the decision and factor them in. 

I'm saying there would be a PR fallout if the Orioles signed him. Yes, I think it'd turn off some fans and while it's hard to put a monetary value on bad press, there is one. 

For personally not being for it, I'd rather not have domestic abusers on my rooting interest, not that I think he's irredeemable or think he doesn't deserve a second chance somewhere, I'd just rather not root for him. 

I'm not sure if Hyde vouching for him matters, Hyde never got a chance to coach him after the news came out that Russell was forcefully ripping their infant baby out of his wife's arms (something he is accused of doing repeatedly and hasn't denied) and throwing her to the floor or chasing her and tackling her onto the concrete. And blaming her for making him act like that to her. Is it ok that I'd rather not root for that guy a year later after some league mandated counselling? 

[weams]

15 hours ago, PaulFolk said:

This is a false equivalency. You don't have to be Cal Ripken or Brooks Robinson to, you know, not be a domestic abuser. You can't just group Russell into the category of, "Hey, nobody's perfect, you know?"

There are many terrible people in baseball. And in life. But abuse is a real question mark. And "she drove me crazy" "she made me do it" never blanches a resurrection tour. 

[Frobby]

After reflecting a bit, I would not oppose the Orioles signing Addison Russell based solely on his past domestic abuse suspension, so long as they did their due diligence and concluded he was genuinely remorseful and that further incidents weren’t likely.    Whether we’d want him from a baseball perspective, compared to the other alternatives out there if we want to sign a middle infielder, is another question, probably deserving of its own thread.   There are a ton of players on the market.

[Tony-OH]

23 minutes ago, Luke-OH said:

I'm not arguing whether there should or should not be a PR issue or what the line is for second chances. The point of that post is that if you do it as a cold calculating move, you have to be cognizant of the ramifications of the decision and factor them in. 

I'm saying there would be a PR fallout if the Orioles signed him. Yes, I think it'd turn off some fans and while it's hard to put a monetary value on bad press, there is one. 

For personally not being for it, I'd rather not have domestic abusers on my rooting interest, not that I think he's irredeemable or think he doesn't deserve a second chance somewhere, I'd just rather not root for him. 

I'm not sure if Hyde vouching for him matters, Hyde never got a chance to coach him after the news came out that Russell was forcefully ripping their infant baby out of his wife's arms (something he is accused of doing repeatedly and hasn't denied) and throwing her to the floor or chasing her and tackling her onto the concrete. And blaming her for making him act like that to her. Is it ok that I'd rather not root for that guy a year later after some league mandated counselling? 

I think it's fine for anyone to not want to root for anyone, and I'm certainly no fan of anyone who commits domestic abuse. How many years ago was this now? How old was he? I'm not trying to make excuses for the guy, but his GM seemed to have good words for him since.

Maybe Russell was a predator of women, or maybe he was a guy who made a mistake in a toxic relationship? This is a better conversation to have verbally since words can get twisted and will look worse than they are, but there are two sides to every story and another side that's the complete truth.

I'm not going to bury a young man who made a mistake if every action he's taken since is to correct that action.

Either way, my main point it seems Russell is the kind of player on the field that fits what the Orioles are trying to do and if they signed him I'd root for him like any other Oriole.

After all, it's the past that should define us but rather who we currently are. Not everyone learns from their mistakes but others do. Since I haven't lived a perfect life, I'm not about to bury a guy for a mistake made in his early 20's if he's proving to be better.

[weams]

On 12/4/2019 at 10:27 AM, Tony-OH said:

I think it's fine for anyone to not want to root for anyone, and I'm certainly no fan of anyone who commits domestic abuse. How many years ago was this now? How old was he? I'm not trying to make excuses for the guy, but his GM seemed to have good words for him since.

Maybe Russell was a predator of women, or maybe he was a guy who made a mistake in a toxic relationship? This is a better conversation to have verbally since words can get twisted and will look worse than they are, but there are two sides to every story and another side that's the complete truth.

I'm not going to bury a young man who made a mistake if every action he's taken since is to correct that action.

Either way, my main point it seems Russell is the kind of player on the field that fits what the Orioles are trying to do and if they signed him I'd root for him like any other Oriole.

After all, it's the past that should define us but rather who we currently are. Not everyone learns from their mistakes but others do. Since I haven't lived a perfect life, I'm not about to bury a guy for a mistake made in his early 20's if he's proving to be better.

I was not a fan of Delmon Young's drunken abuse.  I was a big fan of his double. I never liked Albert Belle. But I liked that one year he had for us. There are plenty of guys we don't know about that may be much worse. I know of one prominent MLB player that I think is a completely disgusting human that no child should ever cheer for. But that is not for me to control. 

So I can be talked into a troubled player, I'd prefer to avoid them when the stakes are so very low. 

[Tony-OH]

Just now, weams said:

I was not a fan of Delmon Young's drunken abuse.  I was a big fan of his double. I never liked Albert Belle. But I liked that one year he had for us. There are plenty of guys we don;t know about that may be much worse. I know of one prominent MLB player that I think is a completely disgusting human that no child should ever chear for. But that is not for me to control. 

So I can be talked into a troubled player, I'd prefer to avoid them when the stakes are so very low. 

But is he a troubled player, or a young man who made a mistake when he was in his early 20s? Would you want every mistake you ever made to be held against you now? 

Not saying you are, but there are a lot of hypocrites sitting on high horses who like to judge other people from what they read and you know what, they may not have the whole story or have a good feel for who the person really is at this point in their lives. 

Just like a person who pays their debt to society after committing a crime. I'd rather judge them by who they are now. Now if Russell is an active abuser, jerk, or is unremorseful then yes, I'd want no parts of him, but that doesn't appear to be the case.

The Cubs non-tendered him because he was expensive for his potential role. I doubt anything else came into play after reading the the GM's comments.

[Frobby]

9 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

I think it's fine for anyone to not want to root for anyone, and I'm certainly no fan of anyone who commits domestic abuse. How many years ago was this now? How old was he? I'm not trying to make excuses for the guy, but his GM seemed to have good words for him since.

Maybe Russell was a predator of women, or maybe he was a guy who made a mistake in a toxic relationship? This is a better conversation to have verbally since words can get twisted and will look worse than they are, but there are two sides to every story and another side that's the complete truth.

I'm not going to bury a young man who made a mistake if every action he's taken since is to correct that action.

Either way, my main point it seems Russell is the kind of player on the field that fits what the Orioles are trying to do and if they signed him I'd root for him like any other Oriole.

After all, it's the past that should define us but rather who we currently are. Not everyone learns from their mistakes but others do. Since I haven't lived a perfect life, I'm not about to bury a guy for a mistake made in his early 20's if he's proving to be better.

At least outwardly, he seems to have accepted responsibility for his actions.    I’m assuming he actually was abusive, since MLB investigated and have him a 40-game suspension, and he has publicly apologized for his actions.   So, I don’t base my willingness to give him another chance on any doubts about whether he actually abused his ex.    Just on his concrete steps to make amends and avoid a repeat episode.    

[Luke-OH]

14 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

I think it's fine for anyone to not want to root for anyone, and I'm certainly no fan of anyone who commits domestic abuse. How many years ago was this now? How old was he? I'm not trying to make excuses for the guy, but his GM seemed to have good words for him since.

Maybe Russell was a predator of women, or maybe he was a guy who made a mistake in a toxic relationship? This is a better conversation to have verbally since words can get twisted and will look worse than they are, but there are two sides to every story and another side that's the complete truth.

I'm not going to bury a young man who made a mistake if every action he's taken since is to correct that action.

Either way, my main point it seems Russell is the kind of player on the field that fits what the Orioles are trying to do and if they signed him I'd root for him like any other Oriole.

After all, it's the past that should define us but rather who we currently are. Not everyone learns from their mistakes but others do. Since I haven't lived a perfect life, I'm not about to bury a guy for a mistake made in his early 20's if he's proving to be better.

It was a year and a half ago. I understand your point of view. I just see it a little differently, which is okay. 

[weams]

4 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

But is he a troubled player, or a young man who made a mistake when he was in his early 20s? Would you want every mistake you ever made to be held against you now? 

Not saying you are, but there are a lot of hypocrites sitting on high horses who like to judge other people from what they read and you know what, they may not have the whole story or have a good feel for who the person really is at this point in their lives. 

Just like a person who pays their debt to society after committing a crime. I'd rather judge them by who they are now. Now if Russell is an active abuser, jerk, or is unremorseful then yes, I'd want no parts of him, but that doesn't appear to be the case.

The Cubs non-tendered him because he was expensive for his potential role. I doubt anything else came into play after reading the the GM's comments.

Kid seems ok. His actual actions probably cross a line where I pull back.  I'm not thinking that any debt has been paid. I'd say the totality of the individual influences opportunities for income especially.

Regarding me, I have paid the price for my actions in my life. And have had many opportunities to focus on a more positive future. There are days in my life I would change. I can't say that relate to physical abusers. Reformed or otherwise. 

I just don't see a need to introduce a personal question mark when the Orioles are obviously non-competitive. 

[7Mo]

Not that my opinion matters but based solely on a Google search, I wouldn't want to bring Russell in. 

It doesn't take much of a search to see the Chicago media has a serious dislike for the guy. Now, I understand that when a guy leaves, it's convenient to trash him but this seems more severe. 

Add to that what seems to be a moody, sulking type attitude and a pattern of acts rather than a one time incident, combined with not knowing the signs after being with the team for 5 years, I'd prefer to look elsewhere. 

Accusations of abuse by Russell first surfaced in 2017, after which MLB commenced an investigation. The Florida native initially denied the allegations, but in a February media session he said (via the Chicago Sun-Times), “I’m accountable for my past actions. I am not proud of the person I was.”

 

“Without getting into details or specifics, I just want to own that what I did was wrong and inexcusable,” Addison said at the time. “And I’m sorry. Sorry for the hurt and pain I put Melisa through.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2019/12/03/cubs-part-ways-with-addison-russell-who-served-ban-under-domestic-violence-policy/

Good riddance to Addison Russell, without whom the Cubs are instantly less offensive

From his character to his demeanor, from his comments during interviews to his performance on the field, Russell repeatedly fell short. If anyone embodied the Cubs’ regression since the 2016 World Series, it was the stumbling, mumbling one-time All-Star starting shortstop.

https://chicago.suntimes.com/cubs/2019/12/3/20994318/addison-russell-chicago-cubs-good-riddance-2019

[weams]

We are all suckers for a good redemption story, a year out from a 40 game suspension is not enough of a breathing room for me. And there is no way that I have to relook at his actions. The investigation that gave him that punishment did that. 

[Tony-OH]

I will end with this on this subject because we will get dangerously close to politics here at some point. But there is a hypocrisy from people who want to boo or attack a person for a mistake they made. I don't know the full story of the incident and neither does anyone else on here. It's just easy to sit on that high horse and claim the moral high ground and just drop him into the "domestic abuser" barrel and brand him with the Scarlet Letter.

Domestic abuse is abhorrent, but there is typically a lot  of the story that don't come out. I have no idea one way or the other whether Russell was a chronic abuser or women, or if he a relationship that went toxic and things went too far. I'm not trying to deflect any blame onto anyone else, but let's remember, he was not arrested. He clearly made enough of a mistake that MLB suspended him, but sometimes MLB tends to err on the side of PR to appease the very people who want to label him with the Scarlet letter as an abuser for life. He served that suspension, that relationship has dissolved, and his GM has publicly said Russell has gone to therapy and done everything to make sure something like that doesn't happen again.

He's only 26-years old. I'd be fine with cheering for the young man as he moves forward with his life.

 

[atomic]

13 minutes ago, 7Mo said:

Not that my opinion matters but based solely on a Google search, I wouldn't

From his character to his demeanor, from his comments during interviews to his performance on the field, Russell repeatedly fell short. If anyone embodied the Cubs’ regression since the 2016 World Series, it was the stumbling, mumbling one-time All-Star starting shortstop.

https://chicago.suntimes.com/cubs/2019/12/3/20994318/addison-russell-chicago-cubs-good-riddance-2019

The only thing of substance this article has is this quote from Addison:

“I’m one of the guys who goes out there and puts his [body] on the line,” he said after rejoining the Cubs last May. “We do it because we love it. We want to win, and we want to bring another championship to Chicago. And if hometown fans want to boo someone that’s trying to help bring the team a World Series again, then that’s on them.”