Iglesias signs with O's

[wildbillhiccup]

12 hours ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Doesn't that describe hundreds or even thousands of glove-first players throughout baseball history?  That's Mike Bordick or Rich Dauer.  Jerry Adair or Cesar Izturis.  It's Corey Patterson or Billy Gardner.

Anyway, he's not that bad of a hitter for a shortstop.  Since he got established in 2013 there are 111 players who've played 350+ games at short.  He's 75th of the 111 in OPS+.  JJ Hardy had a 82 OPS+ the last five years of his career, Iglesias has an 86.  Ryan Flaherty has a career mark of 72. 

In the past, maybe, but in this era I feel like the bar is much higher for a SS' offensive numbers. I think Iglesias is a bit of dying breed with a much smaller margin for error. Just the fact that the Braves chose to trade someone like Andrelton Simmons in 2015/16 when he was arguably the best defensive SS in the game at the time speaks volumes to me. That would have never happened 20 years ago. 

[Frobby]

7 minutes ago, wildbillhiccup said:

In the past, maybe, but in this era I feel like the bar is much higher for a SS' offensive numbers. I think Iglesias is a bit of dying breed with a much smaller margin for error. Just the fact that the Braves chose to trade someone like Andrelton Simmons in 2015/16 when he was arguably the best defensive SS in the game at the time speaks volumes to me. That would have never happened 20 years ago. 

Funny, I feel like I’ve been hearing this for at least 35 years, when Cal was in his prime.   

Like I said, I don’t think OBP is Iglesias’ big offensive problem.    Lack of power is the bigger issue.    Last year the average SS hit .264/.323/.439.     Iglesias hit .288/.318/.407.    But, he’s better than average defensively so as an overall package he’s decent.    Below average for a starter, but good enough to start for some teams and a cheap upgrade for us.  
 

[wildbillhiccup]

11 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Funny, I feel like I’ve been hearing this for at least 35 years, when Cal was in his prime.   

Like I said, I don’t think OBP is Iglesias’ big offensive problem.    Lack of power is the bigger issue.    Last year the average SS hit .264/.323/.439.     Iglesias hit .288/.318/.407.    But, he’s better than average defensively so as an overall package he’s decent.    Below average for a starter, but good enough to start for some teams and a cheap upgrade for us.  
 

Really? You don't see the evolution? Just look at the WAR of the top 10 last season and compare it to 2009 and 2000. Again, I'm not knocking the Iglesias signing (it's fine for us), but the offensive bar is definitely higher these days. 

MLB Top 10 SS' 2019

RK	PLAYER	TEAM	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	SB	CS	BB	SO	AVG	OBP	SLG	OPS	WAR
1	Marcus Semien	OAK	657	123	187	43	7	33	92	10	8	87	102	.285	.369	.522	.892	8.1
2	Trevor Story	COL	588	111	173	38	5	35	85	23	8	58	174	.294	.363	.554	.917	6.4
3	Jorge Polanco	MIN	631	107	186	40	7	22	79	4	3	60	116	.295	.356	.485	.841	5.7
4	Xander Bogaerts	BOS	614	110	190	52	0	33	117	4	2	76	122	.309	.384	.555	.939	5.2
5	Javier Baez	CHC	531	89	149	38	4	29	85	11	7	28	156	.281	.316	.531	.847	4.8
6	Francisco Lindor	CLE	598	101	170	40	2	32	74	22	5	46	98	.284	.335	.518	.854	4.7
7	Nick Ahmed	ARI	556	79	141	33	6	19	82	8	2	52	113	.254	.316	.437	.753	4.5
8	Fernando Tatis Jr.	SD	334	61	106	13	6	22	53	16	6	30	110	.317	.379	.590	.969	4.2
9	Willy Adames	TB	531	69	135	25	1	20	52	4	2	46	153	.254	.317	.418	.735	4.2
10	Paul DeJong	STL	583	97	136	31	1	30	78	9	5	62	149	.233	.318	.444	.762	4.

MLB Top 10 SS' 2009

RK	PLAYER	TEAM	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	SB	CS	BB	SO	AVG	OBP	SLG	OPS	WAR
1	Hanley Ramirez	FLA	576	101	197	42	1	24	106	27	8	61	101	.342	.410	.543	.954	7.1
2	Derek Jeter	NYY	634	107	212	27	1	18	66	30	5	72	90	.334	.406	.465	.871	6.4
3	Troy Tulowitzki	COL	543	101	161	25	9	32	92	20	11	73	112	.297	.377	.552	.930	6.3
4	Brendan Ryan	STL	390	55	114	19	7	3	37	14	7	24	56	.292	.340	.400	.740	4.3
5	Jack Wilson	SEA/PIT	373	37	95	23	1	5	39	3	1	21	48	.255	.292	.362	.654	3.4
6	Elvis Andrus	TEX	480	72	128	17	8	6	40	33	6	40	77	.267	.329	.373	.702	3.3
7	Erick Aybar	LAA	504	70	157	23	9	5	58	14	7	30	54	.312	.353	.423	.776	3.2
8	Stephen Drew	ARI	533	71	139	29	12	12	65	5	1	49	87	.261	.320	.428	.748	2.7
9	Alexei Ramirez	CWS	542	71	150	14	1	15	68	14	5	49	66	.277	.333	.389	.723	2.1
10	Clint Barmes	COL	550	69	135	32	3	23	76	12	10	31	121	.245	.294	.440	.734	2.0

 

MLB Top 10 SS's 2000

 

K	PLAYER	TEAM	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	SB	CS	BB	SO	AVG	OBP	SLG	OPS	WAR
1	Derek Jeter	NYY	593	119	201	31	4	15	73	22	4	68	99	.339	.416	.481	.896	4.4
2	Mike Bordick	BAL/NYM	583	88	166	30	1	20	80	9	6	49	99	.285	.341	.443	.783	2.5
3	Barry Larkin	CIN	396	71	124	26	5	11	41	14	6	48	31	.313	.389	.487	.876	2.4
4	Edgar Renteria	STL	562	94	156	32	1	16	76	21	13	63	77	.278	.346	.423	.770	1.9
5	Felix Martinez	TB	299	42	64	11	4	2	17	9	3	32	68	.214	.305	.298	.603	1.7
6	Pokey Reese	CIN	518	76	132	20	6	12	46	29	3	45	86	.255	.319	.386	.705	1.6
7	Walt Weiss	ATL	192	29	50	6	2	0	18	1	1	26	32	.260	.353	.313	.665	1.2
8	Ramon Martinez	SF	189	30	57	13	2	6	25	3	2	15	22	.302	.354	.487	.841	1.1
9	Ozzie Guillen	TB	107	22	26	4	0	2	12	1	0	6	7	.243	.283	.336	.620	1.0
10	Neifi Perez	COL	651	92	187	39	11	10	71	3	6	30	63	.287	.314	.427	.741	0.9

[Frobby]

37 minutes ago, wildbillhiccup said:

In the past, maybe, but in this era I feel like the bar is much higher for a SS' offensive numbers. I think Iglesias is a bit of dying breed with a much smaller margin for error. Just the fact that the Braves chose to trade someone like Andrelton Simmons in 2015/16 when he was arguably the best defensive SS in the game at the time speaks volumes to me. That would have never happened 20 years ago. 

 

20 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Funny, I feel like I’ve been hearing this for at least 35 years, when Cal was in his prime.   

I’ve looked into this and have to concede that SS has been a continuously improving position offensively over the last 40 years.

1979: 79 OPS+
1989: 85 OPS+
1999: 89 OPS+
2009: 93 OPS+
2019: 103 OPS+

Note: these figures are for all MLB.    AL figures generally would be lower because the pitchers don’t bat and drag down the average to which SS is compared.

Edit: This post was simultaneous with your most recent post, more or less making the same point.    I’d only add that the evolution has been going on for at least 40 years, though arguably accelerated over the last decade.   
 

 

[wildcard]

12 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Funny, I feel like I’ve been hearing this for at least 35 years, when Cal was in his prime.   

Like I said, I don’t think OBP is Iglesias’ big offensive problem.    Lack of power is the bigger issue.    Last year the average SS hit .264/.323/.439.     Iglesias hit .288/.318/.407.    But, he’s better than average defensively so as an overall package he’s decent.    Below average for a starter, but good enough to start for some teams and a cheap upgrade for us.  
 

I don't know why we are trying to compare SS Iglesias to SS on contending teams.   The O's are not contenders.

Elias saw a way to improve the O's defense to help the young pitchers who will be coming to the O's in the next two years and took that path.    That decision is to be applauded.

If we want to talk offense then let's talk about Hays, Mancini, Mountcastle, Santander and Nunez. 

Even the 1983 O's World Series Champs had the "three stooges"  -  Dauer, Dempsey and Cruz - that were good defense/marginal hitting players.     Elias is trying to build a team here.  Not  a bunch of androids that all have the same skills.

[interloper]

What I like is this makes the lineup pretty watchable on a nightly basis. It removes one "auto-out" in Martin (I still love ya Richie) and leaves essentially just one in Davis, who at some point in the season will cease to play every day (again). 

I could see a lineup like this, give or take:

Hays - CF
Alberto - 2B
Mancini - RF
Nunez - DH
Santander - LF
Davis - 1B
Iglesias - SS
Ruiz - 3B
Severino - C

Not that this lineup won't struggle a ton - it will. But it's not hideous. Alberto, Iglesias, and Ruiz all make decent contact even though they lack power/on-base ability. And there's a good amount of pop in there - there exists the possibility of Mancini, Santander, and Nunez all popping 30 if things break right. 

[Bubble Buddy]

13 hours ago, Mr. Chewbacca Jr. said:

Shortstop is pretty loaded right now. In another era, Iglesias would probably be much more valued. I'd guess-timate that 20 out of 30 teams have shortstops they're really happy with right now. 

Since 2013 (the year you mentioned), the league has seen the arrival of Francisco Lindor, Javier Baez, Gleyber Torres, Marcus Semien, Trevor Story,  Fernando Tatis Jr, Jorge Polanco, Willy Adames, Paul DeJong, Corey Seager, Trea Turner, Tim Anderson.

That's a boatload of talent; we're lucky to get to witness so many great shortstops at one time.

I think I'm still stuck in a bygone era when I was following more closely (2012-2014). Was really surprised to see Iglesias be had so cheaply, but your post gives context to that. 

[Redskins Rick]

1 minute ago, Bubble Buddy said:

I think I'm still stuck in a bygone era when I was following more closely (2012-2014). Was really surprised to see Iglesias be had so cheaply, but your post gives context to that. 

I dont care much for the 4 different teams and used to be a clubhouse issue.

But, all reports, he grew up and wasnt a problem at his last stop.

We shall see.

[interloper]

2 minutes ago, Bubble Buddy said:

I think I'm still stuck in a bygone era when I was following more closely (2012-2014). Was really surprised to see Iglesias be had so cheaply, but your post gives context to that. 

I remember in the post-Tejada years when the Orioles simply could not find a SS. There just weren't any! They tried guys Luis Hernandez, Freddie Bynum, Cesar Izturis (certainly the most competent of this group), Brandon Fahey (!!), Alex Cintron, etc. 

[Just Regular]

With generous rounding you can give 25 teams more than 2.5 wins at SS going into the year - everyone but BAL/Iglesias, DET/Goodrum, CIN/Galvis, PIT/Newman and SF/Crawford.

Wander Franco, Gavin Lux, Carter Kieboom, Royce Lewis and Bobby Witt aren't among those Top 25 incumbents - that's maybe the world's best 30 right now.

Lindor/Baez/Correa/Story/Seager sit there as tantalizing possibilities 2 years out if we're ready for them - especially if pass on (or are not able to select) Austin Martin this June.  Infield fairly conspicuously the position group looking shakiest on the next good team today.

[wildbillhiccup]

33 minutes ago, OrioleDog said:

With generous rounding you can give 25 teams more than 2.5 wins at SS going into the year - everyone but BAL/Iglesias, DET/Goodrum, CIN/Galvis, PIT/Newman and SF/Crawford.

Wander Franco, Gavin Lux, Carter Kieboom, Royce Lewis and Bobby Witt aren't among those Top 25 incumbents - that's maybe the world's best 30 right now.

Lindor/Baez/Correa/Story/Seager sit there as tantalizing possibilities 2 years out if we're ready for them - especially if pass on (or are not able to select) Austin Martin this June.  Infield fairly conspicuously the position group looking shakiest on the next good team today.

I'm not sure any of the SS' are going to age well. Maybe Lindor. The others though...

Baez - The poor plate discipline's going to catch up to him at some point. 

Correa - Can't stay healthy.

Story - Coor's Field inflated numbers.

Seager - Teetering on a bust if he doesn't produce this season. 

[Frobby]

2 minutes ago, wildbillhiccup said:

I'm not sure any of the SS' are going to age well. Maybe Lindor. The others though...

Baez - The poor plate discipline's going to catch up to him at some point. 

Correa - Can't stay healthy.

Story - Coor's Field inflated numbers.

Seager - Teetering on a bust if he doesn't produce this season.

What?    Sure you have the right Seager?

Story had a 118 OPS+, which is park-adjusted.

[wildbillhiccup]

4 minutes ago, Frobby said:

What?    Sure you have the right Seager?

Story had a 118 OPS+, which is park-adjusted.

Agreed. He did better last season then I remembered. 

[Mr. Chewbacca Jr.]

2 hours ago, Frobby said:

 

I’ve looked into this and have to concede that SS has been a continuously improving position offensively over the last 40 years.

1979: 79 OPS+
1989: 85 OPS+
1999: 89 OPS+
2009: 93 OPS+
2019: 103 OPS+

Note: these figures are for all MLB.    AL figures generally would be lower because the pitchers don’t bat and drag down the average to which SS is compared.

Edit: This post was simultaneous with your most recent post, more or less making the same point.    I’d only add that the evolution has been going on for at least 40 years, though arguably accelerated over the last decade.   
 

 

Sure, the evolution has been going on for some time: from Cal... to the big three of Jeter, A Rod, and Nomar... to now.

The big difference, from even ten years ago, is the amazing depth at the shortstop position. It's never been so deep with such excellent players. Some teams even have multiple shortstops - but have had to push them to other positions: Bregman, Torres, Machado.

[weams]

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/orioles-sign-jose-iglesias-who-is-both-safe-and-fun/