The best pitching performance ever for the Orioles

[Can_of_corn]

7 minutes ago, tntoriole said:

Since Ks are  the only measure this guy used to determine “best” pitching performance.  Not the context of the game as to important or not or whether it was against a quality opponent or not. 

 When Erik Bedard pitched a complete game against the Texas Rangers in 2007 with 15 strikeouts, Palmer's broadcasting partner Gary Thorne asked rhetorically, "Have you ever seen a better pitched game than that?" To which Palmer replied, "Well, I did throw a no-hitter."

 

So you are discounting SIX walks just because he didn't allow any hits?  Almost twice as many strikeouts?  Maybe if Bedard had the same caliber of defense behind him that Palmer he he wouldn't have allowed any hits?

[tntoriole]

3 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

So you are discounting SIX walks just because he didn't allow any hits?  Almost twice as many strikeouts?  Maybe if Bedard had the same caliber of defense behind him that Palmer he he wouldn't have allowed any hits?

Jim would probably tell you why he walked each one...strategically.  

Maybe if they all swung at pitches in 1969 like Sammy Sosa did in 2007, Palmer would have struck out a lot more too.   The game was obviously different.  That in 2097 was Bedard’s only complete game and only shutout...Palmer had 6 shutouts and 11 complete games that year of 1969.  

Just different ...and, in my view, of both performers, Jim’s was the better. 

A no hitter is a unique pitching performance, I have been going to games for over 50 years and have not seen one.   2 hitters are a dime a dozen and I have seen a bunch, and strikeouts are interesting (though not democratic, as Crash Davis would say) but that doesn’t by itself give Bedard the alltime greatest Oriole pitching performance to me. 

[DrungoHazewood]

Top 25 games in modern Orioles history by game score:

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
Rk                 Player          Date  Tm Opp   Rslt    AppDec   IP  H R ER BB SO HR UER Pit Str GSc IR IS BF AB 2B 3B IBB HBP SH SF GDP SB CS PO BK WP  ERA    WPA  RE24   aLI DFS(DK) DFS(FD)
1            Jerry Walker 1959-09-11(2) BAL CHW  W 1-0 SHO(16) W 16.0  6 0  0  3  4  0           0       111 55 51  0  0   0   0  1  0   1  0  2  0  0  0 0.00  1.591 7.570                 1.570
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
2           Mike Flanagan    1979-08-15 BAL CHW  W 2-1  CG(12) W 12.0  5 1  1  1 12  1           0        99 41 39  0  0   0   0  1  0   1  1  0  0  0  1 0.75  0.974 5.108                 1.535
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
3             Erik Bedard    2007-07-07 BAL TEX  W 3-0     SHO W  9.0  2 0  0  0 15  0   0 109  79        98 27 27  0  0   0   0  0  0   2  0  0  0  0  0 0.00  0.617 5.004                  .966
4            Mike Mussina    2000-08-01 BAL MIN W 10-0     SHO W  9.0  1 0  0  2 15  0   0 125  85        98 32 30  0  0   0   0  0  0   0  0  0  0  0  0 0.00  0.293 5.113                  .384
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
5               Ray Moore    1957-05-21 BAL DET  L 1-2     GS-15 15.0  8 1  1  9  9  0           0        97 59 48  1  0   2   0  2  0   0  0  3  0  0  0 0.60  1.212 5.528                 1.900
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
6             Dylan Bundy    2017-08-29 BAL SEA  W 4-0     SHO W  9.0  1 0  0  2 12  0   0 116  85        95 33 30  0  0   0   1  0  0   0  0  0  0  0  0 0.00  0.502 4.611  .953   50.85   75.00
7            Mike Mussina    1997-05-30 BAL CLE  W 3-0     SHO W  9.0  1 0  0  0 10  0           0        95 28 28  0  0   0   0  0  0   0  0  0  0  0  0 0.00  0.483 4.843                  .709
8          Connie Johnson    1957-08-23 BAL KCA  W 2-1  CG(12) W 12.0  3 1  1  4  7  0           0        95 43 38  1  0   0   0  1  0   0  0  0  0  0  1 0.75  1.014 4.664                 1.468
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
9            Mike Mussina    1992-07-17 BAL TEX  W 8-0     SHO W  9.0  1 0  0  1 10  0   0 117  80        94 29 28  1  0   0   0  0  0   0  0  0  0  0  0 0.00  0.313 4.208                  .653
10            Milt Pappas    1964-09-02 BAL MIN  W 2-0     SHO W  9.0  1 0  0  1 10  0           0        94 29 28  0  0   0   0  0  0   0  0  0  0  0  0 0.00  0.697 4.107                 1.125
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
11             Jim Palmer    1974-09-27 BAL MIL  W 1-0     GS-12 12.0  4 0  0  6  5  0           0        93 44 36  0  0   2   0  2  0   1  2  0  0  0  1 0.00  1.023 5.315                 1.792
12            Tom Phoebus    1968-04-27 BAL BOS  W 6-0     SHO W  9.0  0 0  0  3  9  0           0        93 29 26  0  0   0   0  0  0   0  0  1  0  0  1 0.00  0.218 3.420                  .438
13           Hoyt Wilhelm    1958-09-20 BAL NYY  W 1-0     SHO W  9.0  0 0  0  2  8  0           0        93 28 26  0  0   0   0  0  0   0  0  1  0  0  0 0.00  0.680 3.956                 1.110
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
14             Jim Palmer    1977-07-23 BAL TEX  L 0-1     GS-11 11.0  7 0  0  0  9  0           0        92 39 38  0  0   0   0  1  0   1  1  0  0  0  0 0.00  0.935 5.242                 1.733
15          Wayne Garland    1976-06-21 BAL BOS  W 2-0     SHO W  9.0  2 0  0  1 10  0           0        92 30 29  0  0   0   0  0  0   0  1  0  0  0  0 0.00  0.553 3.749                 1.109
16             Jim Palmer    1975-08-21 BAL TEX  W 4-2     GS-12 12.0  5 2  1  0  6  0           1        92 42 40  0  0   0   0  2  0   1  1  0  0  0  0 0.75  0.716 3.690                 1.540
17           Mike Cuellar    1975-07-26 BAL MIL  W 4-0     SHO W  9.0  1 0  0  3 10  0           0        92 29 26  0  0   0   0  0  0   2  0  0  0  0  0 0.00  0.336 4.308                  .678
18          Ross Grimsley    1974-05-22 BAL CLE  W 1-0 SHO(12) W 12.0  8 0  0  1  7  0           0        92 43 41  0  0   0   0  1  0   1  0  1  0  0  1 0.00  1.023 5.315                 1.598
19           Dave McNally 1965-10-01(1) BAL CLE  W 2-0     SHO W  9.0  2 0  0  1 10  0           0        92 29 28  0  0   0   0  0  0   1  0  1  0  0  1 0.00  0.625 3.986                 1.025
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
20           Jason Hammel    2012-06-16 BAL ATL  W 5-0     SHO W  9.0  1 0  0  2  8  0   0 103  65        91 30 28  0  0   0   0  0  0   0  0  0  0  0  0 0.00  0.357 4.369                  .587
21           Mike Mussina    1998-08-04 BAL DET  W 4-0     SHO W  9.0  2 0  0  0  8  0   0  93  68        91 29 29  1  0   0   0  0  0   0  0  0  0  0  0 0.00  0.456 4.994                  .633
22           Ben McDonald    1993-07-20 BAL KCR  W 7-0     SHO W  9.0  1 0  0  3  9  0   0 123  76        91 30 27  0  0   0   0  0  0   1  0  0  0  0  0 0.00  0.607 4.944                  .939
23           Ben McDonald    1992-04-09 BAL CLE  W 2-0     SHO W  9.0  2 0  0  1  9  0   0 112  73        91 30 29  0  0   0   0  0  0   0  2  0  0  0  0 0.00  0.550 4.379                  .956
24             Jim Hardin    1968-08-19 BAL CAL  W 1-0     SHO W  9.0  2 0  0  0  8  0           0        91 29 28  0  0   0   0  1  0   0  0  1  0  0  0 0.00  0.666 3.249                 1.307
25           Dave McNally    1964-10-01 BAL WSA  W 2-0     SHO W  9.0  1 0  0  3  9  0           0        91 30 26  1  0   0   0  1  0   1  0  0  0  0  1 0.00  0.535 4.066                 1.038

[Can_of_corn]

I would have guessed that Tillman would have made the list at least once. 

Nice to see the Bundy game I mentioned is the third highest for a nine inning appearance.

[DrungoHazewood]

The recent guys get the strikeouts, but the old guys got to pitch extra innings.  Although they'd have probably been better off if they didn't...

Tom Tango has a basic pitch count estimator, and by that Jerry Walker threw close to 200 pitches in his 16-inning start.

[DrungoHazewood]

2 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I would have guessed that Tillman would have made the list at least once. 

Nice to see the Bundy game I mentioned is the third highest for a nine inning appearance.

This was Tillman's best start, an 87.

[Can_of_corn]

13 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

The recent guys get the strikeouts, but the old guys got to pitch extra innings.  Although they'd have probably been better off if they didn't...

Tom Tango has a basic pitch count estimator, and by that Jerry Walker threw close to 200 pitches in his 16-inning start.

Sounds like Bundy in high school.

[Moose Milligan]

57 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I would have guessed that Tillman would have made the list at least once. 

 

Explain yourself.

[Can_of_corn]

5 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Explain yourself.

He made a lot of starts for the O's in a high strikeout era.  Not like 21-25 on the list are overwhelming peformances.

[Moose Milligan]

10 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

He made a lot of starts for the O's in a high strikeout era.  Not like 21-25 on the list are overwhelming peformances.

Dude wasn't a high strikeout pitcher though, I don't think he came close to 200 in any season.

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Moose Milligan said:

Dude wasn't a high strikeout pitcher though, I don't think he came close to 200 in any season.

He had 205 starts as an Oriole to sneak into the top 25. 

[DrungoHazewood]

21 minutes ago, Eric-OH said:

If 87 is that good, I think good ol Daniel Cabrera had a pair of them to add to the list.  

Cabrera had five starts of at least an 80:

                                                                                                                                                                           
Rk             Date  Tm Opp   Rslt  AppDec  IP  H R ER BB SO HR UER Pit Str GSc IR IS BF AB 2B 3B IBB HBP SH SF GDP SB CS PO BK WP  ERA    WPA   RE24   aLI DFS(DK) DFS(FD)
1        2006-09-28 BAL NYY  W 7-1    CG W 9.0  1 1  0  2  5  0   1 106  71        86 30 28  0  0   0   0  0  0   3  0  0  0  0  0 0.00  0.274  4.024                  .512
                                                                                                                                                                           
2        2006-08-19 BAL TOR W 15-0   SHO W 9.0  5 0  0  2 10  0   0 121  78        85 33 31  0  0   0   0  0  0   1  0  0  0  0  0 0.00  0.109  4.923                  .298
3        2005-05-09 BAL MIN  W 3-0  GS-8 W 8.0  3 0  0  2 11  0   0 110  71        85 29 27  0  0   0   0  0  0   0  0  0  0  0  0 0.00  0.436  4.179                 1.013
                                                                                                                                                                           
4        2008-05-08 BAL KCR  W 4-1    CG W 9.0  3 1  1  1  7  0   0 116  76        83 31 30  1  0   0   0  0  0   0  0  0  0  0  1 1.00  0.386  3.702                  .719
5        2004-06-25 BAL ATL  W 5-0   SHO W 9.0  4 0  0  2  6  0   0 102  61        83 31 29  0  0   0   0  0  0   2  0  0  0  0  0 0.00  0.477  4.954                  .921

But also five starts under 20:

151      2007-09-29 BAL NYY L 10-11      GS-4 L 3.0 10  7  6  1  1  0   1  71  42        13 20 19  2  0   0   0  0  0   0  0  0  0  0  0 18.00 -0.394 -4.729                 1.022
                                                                                                                                                                                  
152      2008-08-24 BAL NYY   L 7-8        GS-4 3.2  9  7  7  3  0  1   0  95  49        12 24 19  3  0   0   1  0  1   0  0  0  0  0  0 17.18 -0.442 -5.182                 1.019
153      2004-07-25 BAL MIN   L 4-8      GS-6 L 5.0 11  8  8  1  0  2   0  99  61        12 27 25  2  0   0   0  0  1   0  2  0  0  0  1 14.40 -0.405 -5.248                  .785
                                                                                                                                                                                  
154      2007-09-12 BAL LAA  L 6-18      GS-5 L 4.1  9 10  8  4  5  1   2 105  62        10 27 22  1  0   0   0  0  1   1  4  0  0  0  0 16.62 -0.410 -6.189                  .559
                                                                                                                                                                                  
155      2004-08-21 BAL TOR  L 4-10      GS-3 L 2.1  8  8  8  2  2  1   0  57  30         9 18 13  2  0   0   1  0  2   0  1  0  0  0  0 30.86 -0.394 -6.916                  .861

Interestingly, Cabrera had 23 starts with five or more walks, but none of them had a game score below 41.  In fact his all time high in walks in a start was nine, and he got a game score of 56 because he only allowed one run and struck out 10.

[Moose Milligan]

20 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

He had 205 starts as an Oriole to sneak into the top 25. 

He had a 6.7 K rate to keep him out of the top 25.

[Frobby]

15 hours ago, tntoriole said:

Since Ks are  the only measure this guy used to determine “best” pitching performance.  Not the context of the game as to important or not or whether it was against a quality opponent or not. 

 When Erik Bedard pitched a complete game against the Texas Rangers in 2007 with 15 strikeouts, Palmer's broadcasting partner Gary Thorne asked rhetorically, "Have you ever seen a better pitched game than that?" To which Palmer replied, "Well, I did throw a no-hitter."

 

I’d question whether Palmer meant the remark seriously.     But in any event, give me Bedard or Mussina’s game any day.   

Worth noting: three of Palmer’s six walks came in the 9th inning.    
 

[tntoriole]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

I’d question whether Palmer meant the remark seriously.     But in any event, give me Bedard or Mussina’s game any day.   

Worth noting: three of Palmer’s six walks came in the 9th inning.    
 

Personally and aesthetically,  I will take the no hitters or a World Series or playoff win as alltime great  i.e Cuellar, Bunker, Palmer, McNally, Boddicker, McGregor as opposed to a 2 hitter in a meaningless game in Texas...but, each to their own.  And  I don’t know if it was tongue in cheek...Jim is pretty proud of his achievements, usually. 

Also worth noting in that ninth inning is that Reggie Jackson, who had already hit 42 home runs, was walked for the third time by Palmer...pitching around him the whole game. 

He also walked Dick Green and Tommy Reynolds with two outs...maybe not intentionally but making them swing ONLY at his pitch and  also knowing that Larry Haney, ex Oriole backup and weak hitter, was waiting beyond them for the third out.   Palmer was perhaps the best Oriole pitcher I have ever seen at having a plan for every hitter, every situation and knowing what his strengths were in that matchup. 

Oh, and Jim also had two hits and a walk, including a double and drove in a run and scored a run.  And threw 142 pitches...let’s see the modern guys do that regularly.

But I did truly enjoy Bedard and Mussina too...