Mussina and Palmer

[Frobby]

In a fascinating coincidence, if Mike Mussina wins his next decision, his lifetime W/L will be exactly the same as Jim Palmer's: 268-152.

I think Palmer was the better pitcher in his prime, but Mussina's unbroken string of 17 seasons winning at least 11 games is nothing to sneeze at. His last season in Baltimore was the only time in those 17 years he had a losing record, and that was despite finishing 3rd in the league in ERA.

[O'saintthatbad]

very impressive and hard to believe that we can mention those two in the same sentence.

[Moose Milligan]

Cool coincidence, indeed

[RHall31]

If there was ever a deceiving stat, its Palmer and Mussina having the same

W/L record. It's not even remotely close in my book, Palmer by a mile!

[Lucky Jim]

If there was ever a deceiving stat, its Palmer and Mussina having the same

W/L record. It's not even remotely close in my book, Palmer by a mile!

So, exact same record and ERA+ of 126 (Palmer) and 122 (Mussina) respectively...and Palmer by a mile, eh? Hmmmm.

I love Palmer. But Moose deserves more credit than that.

[Jagwar]

Palmer's eight out of nine 20-win seasons from 1970 to 1978 convinces me that his career has more meat than Mussina's.

Palmer also had 168 CG in 332 starts in those nine seasons.

[btownoriole]

Palmer's eight out of nine 20-win seasons from 1970 to 1978 convinces me that his career has more meat than Mussina's.

Palmer also had 168 CG in 332 starts in those nine seasons.

If Palmer had broken in in 1991, during the era of relief specialists, steroids, and 5-man rotations, do you think he would have come anywhere near those numbers?

I don't think so but I don't know what his numbers would have been. I think Mussina's near-exact same record and ERA+ are strong pieces of evidence that they're pretty darn close.

[Frobby]

Palmer's eight out of nine 20-win seasons from 1970 to 1978 convinces me that his career has more meat than Mussina's.

Palmer also had 168 CG in 332 starts in those nine seasons.

Different eras. To me what sets Palmer apart is the three Cy Young awards, which means that he was considered the best pitcher in the league, under the playing conditions that existed at the time. The 20-win seasons and the complete games are under different conditions than exist today. A 16-17 win season now is the equivalent of a 20-win season in the 1970s because of the shift from 4-man rotations to 5-man rotations. Mussina's 9 16+ win seasons are about the equivalent of Palmer's eight 20-win seasons when you consider the era in which they played. As to complete games, Mussina finished in the top 10 seven times and is 4th among active pitchers behind Maddux, Johnson and Schilling.

[Avsfan]

Psssttt....

W/L record doesn't mean anything...except for getting into the Hall or not...one of the most over-used stats in the game.

[Sports Guy]

So, exact same record and ERA+ of 126 (Palmer) and 122 (Mussina) respectively...and Palmer by a mile, eh? Hmmmm.

I love Palmer. But Moose deserves more credit than that.

Yep especially since there is a great argument that Moose was the better pitcher than Palmer.

If Moose had the exact same numbers he has now but never left for the Yankees, people wouldn't dismiss it as easily.

[nadecir]

I'd say Palmer and Mussina are pretty close.

Palmer had the luxury of playing 19 seasons for a team that finished under .500 only one time. Palmer also had some of the best defensive teams in baseball history behind him when he pitched.

Take a look for example, at that Orioles' 1975 team when Palmer was 23-11 with an ERA+ of 169. In 1975, Bobby Grich won a gold glove at second base, Mark Belanger won a gold glove at shortstop, Brooks Robinson won a gold glove at third base, and Paul Blair won a gold glove in centerfield. Lee May at first probably should have won a gold glove in 1975 over George Scott. That 1975 Orioles team is arguably one of the best defensive teams of all time.

Mussina had some good defensive players behind him, but never the stellar defenses that Palmer had behind him. And Mussina would have won a few more games if he had some better teams in general when he played here for the Orioles.

[El Gordo]

Career K's to BB: Mussinna, 2793-779; Palmer, 2212-1311

[TGO]

Psssttt....

W/L record doesn't mean anything...except for getting into the Hall or not...one of the most over-used stats in the game.

W/L is not the be all, end all, but to say it means nothing is pretty extreme. To paraphrase the cliche, the whole point of the game is to win. Over the course of a career, W/L is very meaningful. Over the course of one season, it isn't meaningless, but you have a much better argument.

[Avsfan]

W/L is not the be all, end all, but to say it means nothing is pretty extreme. To paraphrase the cliche, the whole point of the game is to win. Over the course of a career, W/L is very meaningful. Over the course of one season, it isn't meaningless, but you have a much better argument.

W/L is not a good indicator of how well a pitcher performed...

Guy can go six shut out innings with no walks, and have numbskull reliever come in and give up runs...and the starter gets a No Decision....so if you look at w/l....he didn't pitch well, cause he didn't "win"....which is crap.

So if something isn't a good indicator on how well someone performed...it means it's worthless.

[TonySoprano]

Palmer should have had his fourth Cy Young award in 1977, but baseball politics at the times didn't want to see him have more awards than Sandy Koufax. Sparky Lyle got the award instead.