Mussina and Palmer

[DrungoHazewood]

I'm surprised. This thread has been pretty well balanced. We've discussed this comp before, and the consensus seemed to be that Palmer was not just better than Mussina, but far better.

I guess part of that could be that Old#5 is on vacation. And maybe a little bit of the thought sinking in that had Palmer been starting 32 games a year in a 5-man rotation without four or five gold glovers behind him he might be 20 or 30 games worse than Mussina.

[EddeeEddee]

Yep especially since there is a great argument that Moose was the better pitcher than Palmer.

If Moose had the exact same numbers he has now but never left for the Yankees, people wouldn't dismiss it as easily.

What argument is that? Care to share it?

[Sports Guy]

What argument is that? Care to share it?

Have you not read this thread? Combine all those thoughts.

[Nigel Tufnel]

The thing people forget about Palmer is that he actually had kind of a short career. That seems ridiculous to say, seeing as how he broke in at 19 and pitched until he was 38, but look at his record. He didn't pitch much in 1965, 1967, 1983, and 1984, and he missed 1968 entirely. He got 240 of his wins in a 14-season span that included 1974, when he was hurt and ineffective, and 1981, when there was a strike and he was mostly washed up anyway. And after age 36, he was completely washed up. He won 5 games from age 37 on; Mussina's at 43 and counting.

Mussina's already started 11 more games than Palmer did in his career. Palmer pitched 200 innings in a season 11 times, Mussina 10. So whatever advantages Palmer had by starting 38 games in some seasons have probably been offset by the medical advances in Mussina's time.

Also, if Palmer beats the Brewers in the final game in 1982, he wins his fourth Cy Young, right?

[Lucky Jim]

Jim Palmer was on three World Championship teams..and played a factor in all of them. Mike Mussina will never win a World Series. End of comparisons.

Yep. That's why Scott Brosius is better than Ernie Banks, too. And Trent Dilfer better than Dan Marino. And M.L. Carr better than Karl Malone.

Thanks for the insight, Roy.

[Lucky Jim]

I'm surprised. This thread has been pretty well balanced. We've discussed this comp before, and the consensus seemed to be that Palmer was not just better than Mussina, but far better.

I guess part of that could be that Old#5 is on vacation. And maybe a little bit of the thought sinking in that had Palmer been starting 32 games a year in a 5-man rotation without four or five gold glovers behind him he might be 20 or 30 games worse than Mussina.

I think that Palmer WAS, in the end, considerably better than Mussina.

I've only argued that saying "there's no comparison" is silly and short-sighted.

[24fps]

Jim Palmer was on three World Championship teams..and played a factor in all of them. Mike Mussina will never win a World Series. End of comparisons.

C'mon Roy. By this logic, Scott Brosius is a better player than Ken Griffey, Jr.

[Lucky Jim]

C'mon Roy. By this logic, Scott Brosius is a better player than Ken Griffey, Jr.

Get off my jock! :cussing:

lol.

[24fps]

Get off my jock! :cussing:

lol.

Hey, can I help it if I have to research what rolls off your tongue so easily?

[El Gordo]

I would say they are comparable. CY's and WS rings are more a product of the teams they played for, than the quality of their pitching. They have the same number of W's, are close in WHIP, close in ERA+ and Mussinna has a sizable edge in K/BB. They played in different eras so to claim one is vastly superior to the other is not germain IMO.

[grady41]

And how much better would Palmers stats be if he had not missed so much time with injuries? How many big games did Palmer win and Mussina choke away? Or Mussina win and Palmer choke away?

No way Mussina is better then Palmer to fans who watched both play in person, Palmer represents the O's as I knew growing up, Mussina represents the EBW/Jacobs O's the team that started the culture of loosing. It is just to bad Angelos cannot get back the pre EBW O's, he has tried but keeps screwing up.

[DrungoHazewood]

And how much better would Palmers stats be if he had not missed so much time with injuries?

I don't know. But if you're going down that road let's start talking about guys like Pete Reiser, Eric Davis, Joe Wood, Sadie McMahon, Lyman Bostock, and Austin McHenry. They all had HOF careers interrupted by injury.

How many big games did Palmer win and Mussina choke away? Or Mussina win and Palmer choke away?

Oh, I don't know. I can think of quite a few big games Mussina pitched, and everyone remembers the last day of the 1982 season.

No way Mussina is better then Palmer to fans who watched both play in person, Palmer represents the O's as I knew growing up, Mussina represents the EBW/Jacobs O's the team that started the culture of loosing. It is just to bad Angelos cannot get back the pre EBW O's, he has tried but keeps screwing up.

I saw both of them pitch. I think Mussina is comparable.

You appear to be using each pitcher as a representative of the team and the era and the ownership he played for or in. That seems to be Roy's argument, too. If a player's final judgment is based on that, what do we say about Brian Roberts, and Nick Markakis, and Jeremy Guthrie, and for that matter Cal Ripken. Cal chose to play the last eight or nine years of his career for Peter Angelos.

[Old#5fan]

Yep especially since there is a great argument that Moose was the better pitcher than Palmer.

If Moose had the exact same numbers he has now but never left for the Yankees, people wouldn't dismiss it as easily.

The problem with your argument is you apparently blindly choose to overlook how many chances one Mike Mussina has had to help himself gain a lock at the HOF. As in missing a perfect game when all he needed was one more strike, missing a 20 win season several times when he had multiple opportunities, throwing a passal of 1 hitters but never a No-hitter, never winning a Cy Young, and failing to ever win any kind of clinching playoff or WS winning game. To me, that is the story of Mike Mussina in a nutshell- almost great. He should forever be given the title of "Mr. Almost." However, in comparison to Palmer he is "Mr. Not Even CLOSE!"

It was also poetic justice when Cito Gaston didn't insert him in the allstar game at OPACY. While it made me mad at the time it just once more adds to the list and legacy of Mr. Almost's career.

Anybody who thinks he is never saw Palmer pitch in his prime. That could be the only possible explanation.

[Frobby]

Jim Palmer was on three World Championship teams..and played a factor in all of them. Mike Mussina will never win a World Series. End of comparisons.

I'm surprised to see this kind of logic from you, Roy. There are many pitchers who "played a factor" on 3+ World Championship teams, who were nowhere near as good as Mike Mussina.

As I said in the opening post, I think it's pretty clear than Palmer at his best was better than Mussina at his best. But Palmer only had 13 seasons where he won 10+ games, and he was basically done at age 36, hanging on for two more years. Mussina is 39 and still very effective, and could be very good for a while longer.

[BMann]

The problem with your argument is you apparently blindly choose to overlook how many chances one Mike Mussina has had to help himself gain a lock at the HOF. As in missing a perfect game when all he needed was one more strike, missing a 20 win season several times when he had multiple opportunities, throwing a passal of 1 hitters but never a No-hitter, never winning a Cy Young, and failing to ever win any kind of clinching playoff or WS winning game. To me, that is the story of Mike Mussina in a nutshell- almost great. He should forever be given the title of "Mr. Almost." However, in comparison to Palmer he is "Mr. Not Even CLOSE!"

It was also poetic justice when Cito Gaston didn't insert him in the allstar game at OPACY. While it made me mad at the time it just once more adds to the list and legacy of Mr. Almost's career.

Anybody who thinks he is never saw Palmer pitch in his prime. That could be the only possible explanation.

I agree 100%. Palmer was THE MAN. Mussina's simply A Very Good Pitcher who has never done anything particularly extraordinary (other than decide to leave the O's to join the MFY for what he undoubtedly assumed would lead to an easy ring or two).

The fact that he fled to NY makes it impossible for me to judge him fairly, though. Nor should any O's fan ever be expected to judge him fairly after that defection to The Enemy. I hope he's never inducted into our HOF, either. A ridiculous omission on the logical side, but a completely justifiable one from an emotional standpoint.