Owners submit new economic plan to union : UPDATED

[Chelsea_Phil]

I was on a tennis forum and they put up old matches from the past, like borg-McEnroe in the 80s or Ashe-Connors in 75 Wimbledon final.  Seeing no time wasted between points played , such as no towel to wipe face after every point, was so refreshing as compared to the current tennis with all the delay between points.  Baseball is just the same, games in the 70s and earlier were much more enjoyable due to the lack of time wasting between pitches.  People under 40 will never go back to baseball unless something is drastically done to fix the ‘slowness’ 

[Tony-OH]

2 hours ago, Philip said:

At what point do the changes we make turn baseball into something that is not baseball? For the millionth time, the problem is not the length of game, but that the variables are being removed and it is boring.

The 2014 wildcard game between the A’s and Royals was one of the most exciting games I’ve ever seen. It’s lousy in replay, But live, the suspense was one of the most intense things I’ve ever experienced in sports.

I am an American Leaguer, But I really appreciate National League strategy necessitated by the lack of a DH.

Regardless, striving to shorten the game is tilting at windmills. The game length is not the problem.

Yeah, walking or pitching around the 8th hitter to load the bases so you can pitch to an automatic out is real strategy. Watching your pitcher run around the bases then get tired and come out and get a hammered the next inning is a blast. But man, those double switches, my God those are exciting and takes a genius to pull those off correctly.

I agree though, these shortening the game things are pretty bad outside of making the batters stay in the box and pitch clock (which no one ever calls even when it goes out).

[Can_of_corn]

4 minutes ago, Chelsea_Phil said:

I was on a tennis forum and they put up old matches from the past, like borg-McEnroe in the 80s or Ashe-Connors in 75 Wimbledon final.  Seeing no time wasted between points played , such as no towel to wipe face after every point, was so refreshing as compared to the current tennis with all the delay between points.  Baseball is just the same, games in the 70s and earlier were much more enjoyable due to the lack of time wasting between pitches.  People under 40 will never go back to baseball unless something is drastically done to fix the ‘slowness’ 

I seem to recall McEnroe matches having a lot of wasted time.

[Tony-OH]

19 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Sure.  But how many boring games of three hours do you have a season?  Last year the Yanks played 49 games that were over three hours and were decided by four runs or more.  The Orioles played 41.  Over a quarter of the schedule were games that weren't particularly close and took forever.

What's great is a tense, suspenseful game played in a crisp 2:05.  Baseball used to be played in two hours.  They haven't added an hour more baseball, they've added an hour more standing around and talking and doing nothing.

And commercials. Noticed they really didn't cut down the in between inning times because that's where their commercials come into play. I'd rather see more in game sponsored stuff then the same 10 commercials that I can quote word for word by May every year on MASN. 

Mostly the game has changed because the strike zones got smaller, guys starter going deeper into counts for the most part, and of course the fact that guys are now all trying to hit home runs which means more strikeouts. Also teams like the Yankees and Red Sox that have lots of guys who will just foul pitch after pitch off until they get a mistake they can mash.

I kinda toyed with the idea of starting the count at 1-1 and once you get to two strikes, you get two fouls, on the third you are out. This would encourage batters to put the ball in play more.

[spiritof66]

1 hour ago, Yossarian said:

After 14 innings you hit off a tee.  If still tied after 17 innings, you start adding one more player in the field on defense for each extra inning beyond 17.   A home run over the fence is counted as an out while hitting off the tee.

No tee. After 14 innings, only position players can pitch. After 17 innings, remove a defensive player each inning (as Can O'Corn proposed). After 20 innings, eliminate a base each inning (so in the 18th, a runner on first scores by going to third and then to home.

That'll create some real fan appeal. 

[Can_of_corn]

10 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

And commercials. Noticed they really didn't cut down the in between inning times because that's where their commercials come into play. I'd rather see more in game sponsored stuff then the same 10 commercials that I can quote word for word by May every year on MASN. 

Mostly the game has changed because the strike zones got smaller, guys starter going deeper into counts for the most part, and of course the fact that guys are now all trying to hit home runs which means more strikeouts. Also teams like the Yankees and Red Sox that have lots of guys who will just foul pitch after pitch off until they get a mistake they can mash.

I kinda toyed with the idea of starting the count at 1-1 and once you get to two strikes, you get two fouls, on the third you are out. This would encourage batters to put the ball in play more.

I'm all for blaming batters for stepping out of the box and adjusting things after every pitch.

[scOtt]

3 hours ago, 24fps said:

Should the owners ever open an honest set of books to the MLBPA, I think I would be too busy watching the pigs fly by to pay attention.  Did you know that no movie in the history of Hollywood ever made money?  Fact.  Just ask all the profit participants.

[Tony-OH]

14 minutes ago, Chelsea_Phil said:

I was on a tennis forum and they put up old matches from the past, like borg-McEnroe in the 80s or Ashe-Connors in 75 Wimbledon final.  Seeing no time wasted between points played , such as no towel to wipe face after every point, was so refreshing as compared to the current tennis with all the delay between points.  Baseball is just the same, games in the 70s and earlier were much more enjoyable due to the lack of time wasting between pitches.  People under 40 will never go back to baseball unless something is drastically done to fix the ‘slowness’ 

I can tell you what, if the player's union ends up bulking over money and the season goes down the drain this year, it could have catastrophic effects on the future of baseball. 

Baseball has already lost interest in the African-American communities and with online gaming becoming an actual competitive sport, I could see baseball going downhill quickly. Baseball has become such a sport of haves and have nots that we have this whole culture of teams basically losing on purpose for high draft picks. 

How will the Orioles ever be able to compete consistently on this uneven playing field when they start receiving even less money from MASN, and after losing a generation of Orioles fans to either the Nats or other sports/recreational activities?

This team hasn't been to the World Series since 1983 (37 years) and has only really been a true World Series contender once since 1997 (2014). In a world that loves winners, it's hard to find large groups of new fans with their losing ways.

When you add in the city's troubles, and you can see why attendance has fallen five straight years since 2014 until it was smallest in Camden Yard history last year. Last year's attendance was the smallest since 1978 over full season.

I fear that COVID19 just might be the death nail for the Orioles and potentially baseball unless they can do something to get baseball back on the field this year.

People are not going to take too kindly to being cooped up and knowing that baseball players could be out there playing but won't because their union wants more of the share of the Billions.

 

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Tony-OH said:

I can tell you what, if the player's union ends up bulking over money and the season goes down the drain this year, it could have catastrophic effects on the future of baseball. 

Baseball has already lost interest in the African-American communities and with online gaming becoming an actual competitive sport, I could see baseball going downhill quickly. Baseball has become such a sport of haves and have nots that we have this whole culture of teams basically losing on purpose for high draft picks. 

How will the Orioles ever be able to compete consistently on this uneven playing field when they start receiving even less money from MASN, and after losing a generation of Orioles fans to either the Nats or other sports/recreational activities?

This team hasn't been to the World Series since 1983 (37 years) and has only really been a true World Series contender once since 1997 (2014). In a world that loves winners, it's hard to find large groups of new fans with their losing ways.

When you add in the city's troubles, and you can see why attendance has fallen five straight years since 2014 until it was smallest in Camden Yard history last year. Last year's attendance was the smallest since 1978 over full season.

I fear that COVID19 just might be the death nail for the Orioles and potentially baseball unless they can do something to get baseball back on the field this year.

People are not going to take too kindly to being cooped up and knowing that baseball players could be out there playing but won't because their union wants more of the share of the Billions.

 

In baseball's defense that does happen in the NBA and to a lesser extent the NFL.  In fact I'd say the NBA invented it.

[spiritof66]

6 hours ago, Mr. Chewbacca Jr. said:

I totally understand the players perspective, but like you mentioned, the players don't have a ton of leverage here. They want to play so they can get paid, accrue service time, etc - but don't want to establish a precedent in the future. And - they're going to lose public support really quickly if a bunch of millionaires are arguing over 50% vs 60%. I wouldn't want to be Tony Clark right now.

I don't see the union backing away from their refusal to tie salaries to the teams' revenues. Given the medical and logistical problems, I think the union would be willing to blow off the 2020 Half-Season over that issue if forced to do so. The union has not cared much in the past about public support for them and their position, and I'm not sure whether they would do so now. 

There have been some comments to the effect that revenue-sharing would require MBL teams to open up their books. I think that's vastly overstated. The issue that determines the players' share would be revenue, not income. The only information teams would have to share for empty-stadium 2020 would concern receipts from league-wide TV and radio deals, local media deals and non-game stuff like merchandise sales, licensing, etc. (One issue is whether revenues would include the value of cable rights that some teams have diverted to the regional sports networks that they control.) The interesting stuff that teams really want to hide is on the expense side, and that wouldn't be involved in assessing teams' revenues.

[weams]

1 hour ago, jarman86 said:

Television stations are thirsting for content to play.  Why else is NASCAR, UFC, and boxing starting up?  NBA and NHL still mulling continuing the 2019-20 season?  Live sports are a gold mine for television because people watch it...live and will sit through commercials.  Advertising revenue goes up and television money goes up.  If there was no money to be made on both sides, we wouldn't even have this thread as MLB would have stopped paying their players in March and the season would already be canceled.  

The Guaranteed salaries would put some clubs as net losers for the season if played as agreed earlier. Especially if later the deal gets closed again or playoffs don’t make it. 

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, spiritof66 said:

I don't see the union backing away from their refusal to tie salaries to the teams' revenues. Given the medical and logistical problems, I think the union would be willing to blow off the 2020 Half-Season over that issue if forced to do so. The union has not cared much in the past about public support for them and their position, and I'm not sure whether they would do so now. 

There have been some comments to the effect that revenue-sharing would require MBL teams to open up their books. I think that's vastly overstated. The issue that determines the players' share would be revenue, not income. The only information teams would have to share for empty-stadium 2020 would concern receipts from league-wide TV and radio deals, local media deals and non-game stuff like merchandise sales, licensing, etc. (One issue is whether revenues would include the value of cable rights that some teams have diverted to the regional sports networks that they control.) The interesting stuff that teams really want to hide is on the expense side, and that wouldn't be involved in assessing teams' revenues.

I think that if the players don't decide to play in 2020 that it pretty much guarantee a work stoppage after the 2021 season.  I think that no baseball in 2020 combined with a stoppage in 2022 will do a huge amount of damage to a sport that has been raking in the money.

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, weams said:

The Guaranteed salaries would put some clubs as net losers for the season if played as agreed earlier. Especially if later the deal gets closed again or playoffs don’t make it. 

Realistically every team should be able to absorb the loss for one year. 

[scOtt]

5 hours ago, murph said:

I am sure this has already been discussed, but I missed it, if they do get this off the ground with MLB playing but the minors not playing, how does roster management work?  Are the teams just hoping their Milb players stay in game shape and ready to preform if called up?  I know they are talking expanded rosters, but expanding enough to be able to compete with whatever losses happen (even in shortened season)?  I could think of a few more questions with the Milb players, but has this been discussed and how the full major and minor league rosters would be handled?

 

The best speculation (and this is also up for negotiation) is for a 30 man playing roster. Then a 20 man reserve roster for injury replacement etc. Not sure if those 20 would travel with the team or head to Sarasota in our case.

Other than that the minors are stopped; Either until they decide to crank them back up again or until the 2021 starts back up.

[scOtt]

4 minutes ago, scOtt said:

The best speculation (and this is also up for negotiation) is for a 30 man playing roster. Then a 20 man reserve roster for injury replacement etc. Not sure if those 20 would travel with the team or head to Sarasota in our case.

Other than that the minors are stopped; Either until they decide to crank them back up again or until the 2021 starts back up.

This is complete, in the moment speculation by me, If there's a some type of 2nd Spring Training they could send 65 or 70 players and whittle the "roster" down to 50 like a real ST.