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The idea that we haven't done any dumb moves is both stupid and valid.

Its great that AM hasn't done those things....But the other side to that is, why should we commend him for not being an idiot?

Just because we have been foolishly run in the past doesn't mean we should be happy that AM hasn't been foolish.

How about we be happy for real results not because of a lack of stupidity?

For me, i want results and the results aren't there...He needs to do a lot more...If this offseason ends up a disappointment, then I will go from having faith in him to saying he is just another member of our horrendous string of GMs.

The Tejeda and Bedard trades alone keep him from ever being labeled horrendous.

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So long as Orioles fans aren't staging protests and riots inside and outside the stadium, AM will take his time building/rebuilding this team. Which is likely the best direction for the Organization as a whole, but probably means at least one and perhaps two more seasons of lackluster baseball for the fans. If there is a middle ground to be found, I hope he finds it.

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The Tejeda and Bedard trades alone keep him from ever being labeled horrendous.

Thank you for proving my point in terms of making this thread.

This is the attitude I am talking about.

How long do we credit him for these deals?

Obviously, they are deals that can reap benefits for us for years and he should be applauded for them.

But we can't be happy with just those deals and him not making stupid moves.

He has to do much much more.

During the season, we heard from many people on here that we weren't that far away. It should be obvious to everyone now that we are very far away BUT we have a solid foundation and can get into the picture very quickly.

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So long as Orioles fans aren't staging protests and riots inside and outside the stadium, AM will take his time building/rebuilding this team. Which is likely the best direction for the Organization as a whole, but probably means at least one and perhaps two more seasons of lackluster baseball for the fans.

The Orioles can't afford another sub 2 million in attendance. Fans are fed up and are moving on. The Orioles can't afford another losing season with the same cast of characters. If MacPhail takes his time, there may not be any fanbase left to watch his newly assembled team when they are ready to compete.

There is going to have to be some direction shown this offseason. Either MacPhail is going to take advantage of the pieces that are out there, including two players that want to play for the Orioles, or he's going to completely blow up this team, dealing Roberts, Huff, Scott and Guthrie as well. And then we'll just have to pray that who he gets back will be good ML players and we can compete in the next 10 years...

I really hope we do the former because we can compete in 2010 and win 85 games or so in 2009 if he spends some $ and deals some of the younger pitching. We've got the resources to finish the rebuild of the ML team this offseason.

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I'm not commending him for not being an idiot. I'm merely recognizing it. There is a difference.

FYI, making decisions by looking at results only is rarely a wise course of actions. The lack of results should lead to an analysis of the root cause and addressing that root cause. I know that is what you mean, but our lack of results this year should in no way impugn or support the job MacPhail has done.

This year's results means ZIP. Only the processes put in place and decisions made should matter right now and they have been much more good than bad. For that reason, he is doing fine. However, because we had so far to go, he has to continue doing very well this offseason. He will also have to overcome a ridiculously tough division to show progress. Those are his crosses to bare.

Wow...do you really think I am judging him on our win/loss record?

Amazing.

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How can the Orioles both have a solid foundation and can get into the picture very quickly AND be very far away? These are conflicting statements. He is either has most of the pieces in place or he doesn't. In my opinion, we are neither very far away nor on the doorstep. We are still 5-7 ML pieces away which is neither close nor far.

LOL..They are only conflicting in your mind...Let me break them down:

The orioles do have a solid foundation but what they have isn't nearly good enough to contend...So, without AM making very good moves and adding to what we have, that solid foundation won't get us anywhere close to where we need to go.

So, with the absence of the better talent we need(in addition to what we have), we are very far away.

But, smart moves by AM, coupled with our existing talent could get us to where we need to be very quickly.

I mean seriously, are you just trying to argue because I am not praising him? You should have understood what i was saying.

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Apparently MacPhail told Angelos that the team could not be competitive until 2010.. So, as far as I'm concerned, I want to see some tangible, on-field results in 2010. Not potential, not guys in the pipeline, but results. A team that is at least competitive into September.

I certainly understand wanting to make judgments on him beforehand, but my opinion has always been that we just don't know enough about what goes on behind the scenes.

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How can the Orioles both have a solid foundation and can get into the picture very quickly AND be very far away? These are conflicting statements. He is either has most of the pieces in place or he doesn't. In my opinion, we are neither very far away nor on the doorstep. We are still 5-7 ML pieces away which is neither close nor far.

To me MacPhail can both continue the rebuilding of the organization and complete the rebuild of the major league club this offseason.

Right now for 2009 we have holes at 1B, SS and four holes in the rotation.

Teixeira obviously would fill the hole at 1B. And we've got the younger starting pitching as well as Nolan Reimold to deal for a SS like Khalil Greene or Jack Wilson.

We can easily fill two of those rotation holes with FA starters with only one being a 4 year contract costing a draft pick like Burnett and the other being a solid 1 year stopgap like Moyer. And then we've got the minor league depth to fill the last two with guys like Bergesen and we've also got guys who still should get a shot like Liz, Olson and Penn.

With three solid SP's and a killer offense, we should easily be able to get to 85 wins. And with the next crop of SP's such as Arrieta, Tillman and Matusz, those other three spots in the rotation should be filled in 2010 and with the continued good offense, we should be ready to compete for those next 4 years.

In the meantime we can continue to draft well, and start to build a presence in the international market by making runs at top Latin talent and top Japanese talent like Darvish, who could fill one of those rotation spots in 2010.

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The Orioles can't afford another sub 2 million in attendance. Fans are fed up and are moving on. The Orioles can't afford another losing season with the same cast of characters. If MacPhail takes his time, there may not be any fanbase left to watch his newly assembled team when they are ready to compete.

There is going to have to be some direction shown this offseason. Either MacPhail is going to take advantage of the pieces that are out there, including two players that want to play for the Orioles, or he's going to completely blow up this team, dealing Roberts, Huff, Scott and Guthrie as well. And then we'll just have to pray that who he gets back will be good ML players and we can compete in the next 10 years...

I really hope we do the former because we can compete in 2010 and win 85 games or so in 2009 if he spends some $ and deals some of the younger pitching. We've got the resources to finish the rebuild of the ML team this offseason.

I wish this was the case, but I'm not sure attendance has much affect on the bottom line. Revenue streams are many and generally plentiful... fans don't make much difference. Especially if you're talking a change of 250k-500k in a season over a previous season.

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Apparently MacPhail told Angelos that the team could not be competitive until 2010.. So, as far as I'm concerned, I want to see some tangible, on-field results in 2010. Not potential, not guys in the pipeline, but results. A team that is at least competitive into September.

I certainly understand wanting to make judgments on him beforehand, but my opinion has always been that we just don't know enough about what goes on behind the scenes.

Post of the thread, right here.

Well done.

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I wish this was the case, but I'm not sure attendance has much affect on the bottom line. Revenue streams are many and generally plentiful... fans don't make much difference. Especially if you're talking a change of 250k-500k in a season over a previous season.

It's not just attendance. People will buy less O's merchandise, sponsors may decide to take their advertising elsewhere because of the lack of interest etc.

The O's can't afford to become a back page team and right now in September that's exactly what they are...

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Thank you for proving my point in terms of making this thread.

This is the attitude I am talking about.

How long do we credit him for these deals?

Obviously, they are deals that can reap benefits for us for years and he should be applauded for them.

But we can't be happy with just those deals and him not making stupid moves.

He has to do much much more.

During the season, we heard from many people on here that we weren't that far away. It should be obvious to everyone now that we are very far away BUT we have a solid foundation and can get into the picture very quickly.

I was specifically commenting about you saying that his tenure here could at some point be labeled horrendous. I don't see that under any circumstance.

I give him credit for those deals as long as I'm alive. He did it, They were great deals and he should get the credit.

Does he have more to do? Of course. Anyone that watches the team can see that. I don't think it's realistic to criticize him for not going deal happy during the season. From what I read he put almost the entire team on waivers and guess what? Very little interest. That limits the moves he can make.

From my perspective I'll take another 2 or 3 years of his progress with no complaints. Because at the end of those three years he will have a very talented, cheap, and flexible Organization.

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What I'm saying has nothing to do with praise of AM. I would rather go through a waterboarding process than try to understand what it takes to get you to praise an Oriole GM.

It is logically ridiculous to say we are "very far away" and "have a solid foundation and can get into the picture very quickly" unless you and I define "very far away" quite differently. This probably just semantics. You tend to hyperbolize to make your points more black and white than they really are.

My view:

The Mariners are very far away. They have nowhere near the talent to compete at the ML level, lots of resources tied in bad contracts, and very little MiL talent at their upper levels.

The Orioles are neither close nor far IMO. We have nowhere near the talent to compete in the AL East at the ML level, but we have very few bad contracts (lots of capital to spend) and a lot of MiL talent at our upper levels.

The most daunting thing for the Orioles long term is that the AL East currently has 4 of the best 10 teams in the 30 team league. I have no idea what we can do about that except live with it.

Only in your world of logic.

I am sure you are going to agree the solid foundation is there.

I am sure you agree that we have o chance of contending with what we currently have.

So, I am not sure how you can say it is illogial to say we are far away even though we have a solid foundation.

You do realize that we have many more holes to fill on a long term basis right? You do realize that we are over 20 games out ofa playoff spot, right?

Did you stop watching in July and just ignore the rest of the year?

Did you stop looking at the other teams in front of us?

If you didn't do those things, you should be able to get my point...that is unless you just want to argue over nothing.

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