How much longer do we hang onto...

[hoosiers]

I have a feeling AM is not an aggressive type GM. Not one who goes out and pursues players who will make the team better. His style seem more from the Syd Thrift school where he waits by the phone.... When talking about dumb moves you have to rank starting the season with Luis Hernandez at SS and Steve Trachsel in the pen as top of the list. He also should have been all over pursuing Milledge and Reyes when they were available. People say how bad shape were in but justify not making moves. The topper is you can count the sure fire major league players in our system on two fingers.

So, Luis Montanez counts for nothing?

I want AM to keep making great moves like everyone else, but let's look at this objectively. People here cite two in a handful of examples in all of baseball of teams taking chances on risky guys and, yet, while Montanez is no star and may not even be a future regular, our FO did, in fact, find a 25 roster contributor for nothing - which is better than most organizations did in this regard.

There have been people here screaming for another Jon Knott, for Reyes, for many, many others. I am not here to defend AM, I'm just saying let's look at this objectively and see what organizations took chances on what scrap-heap guys and how many did as well as the Orioles getting a likely future 4th OFer or better in Lou Montanez for nothing?

[osfan83]

Yea, this Rome wasn't built in a day stuff is getting real old...We have heard this since January.

If little is accomplished this offseason, what are we going to here then? Rome wasn't built in TWO days?

There hasn't been enough done.

Right. The problem is, that there is a deadline. In 2009 2b and rf are in good shape, but wait until 20011 and now both could be a problem. Each passing year a new problem will crop up. Because of free agency, you can't have a 5 year plan on rebuilding, it really needs to be done within a couple of years.

[Slappy]

Bedard - he deserves credit

Tejada - he deserves credit

Trachsel trade - just what has than netted us???

Weiters - that deal was cut by Duq and Jordan before the draft.

Matusz - Jordan gets credit here.

Guys that want to bash AM, will find ways to do it, as the above shows.

Clearly more has been accomplished to improve the *long term* fortunes of the franchise in the last 13 months than in the previous 7 years. It took 9 years to get the O's in this mess, and it's unrealistic to expect them to get out of it in 13 months.

The farm system has made dramatic jumps over the past year to the point now where it is upper tier. That's an accomplishment. Arguably the top 3 prospects in the system came here on McPhail's watch.

The Trachsel trade... who cares? The guy was worthless anyway. It netted us the opportunity to get a ML look at Olson and Liz.

Weiters goes down to the wire on the deadline and you credit the signing to something that happened before the draft? Explain, please.

It's always interesting that people clamor to rebuild and then immediately get impatient during the process. Tampa was patient for about 5 years, and are reaping the rewards this year and likely for several years to come. The O's were a complete and utter mess when McPhail arrived, and it's difficult to argue that organizationally they are not moving in the right direction.

Jeez....

[Pedro Cerrano]

Please adhere to this guys..

http://forum.orioleshangout.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70639

Not trying to be bossy, but I'd hate to lose either of you for an extended period of time...

[LookitsPuck]

Bedard - he deserves credit

Tejada - he deserves credit

Trachsel trade - just what has than netted us???

Weiters - that deal was cut by Duq and Jordan before the draft.

Matusz - Jordan gets credit here.

Wrong on Weiters. Who was in charge of getting him signed? I'm not talking about drafting him, I'm talking about signing.

In regards to Matusz, of course Jordan gets credit as well, but you have to give MacPhail credit for putting a philosphy in place on stockpiling young arms. The fact that Jordan is working under AM is pretty evident, so the credit certainly has to bubble up in some sort of capacity.

Trading Trachsel netted us a bullpen arm in Cherry and some minor league depth in Scott Moore. Not to mention we nixed the remainder of Trachsel's salary. Couple that with allowing us to get looks at Liz and Olson instead of watching Trachsel stink up the joint for the remainder of the year, and I look at it as a plus.

How about dropping Gibbons? That's a bold (great) move as well.

AM's shortcomings? Not taking the proposed Cubs deal (if it even existed) and not fixing the whole at SS. As well as not getting some SP to stabilize a rotation after it became apparent that it was going to be weak (Loewen hanging up his pitching duties, Olson, Liz, and Burres struggling, for examples).

[Mad Mark]

It's been mentioned in this thread that the Orioles last won the WS 25 years ago, which is probably less time than has elapsed since the last truly great Orioles draft class. The rot of the foundation (farm system) went on for so long, and was so systemic, that it's rather shocking to see the system rated anywhere other than the bottom of the league now.

MacPhail may have set the bar impossibly high for himself in turning Bedard, Tejada and Trachsel into 13 players. If he can spin that kind of return out of Huff, Roberts and Sherrill, he won't just be a good GM, he'll almost be a deity.

You can't guarantee results, you can only guarantee effort.

From what I can see (and I'm not an "insider", by any means) effort has been delivered...and the results--so far--have been pretty darned good.

I do agree that this offseason is important. I won't hang a crucial tag on it though...not yet.

[Sports Guy]

This is patently false. As usual, you paint everyone into either a black or white stance when neither is true. The fact is, if someone doesn't continuously berate the team mgmt, they support them in your opinion. Not everyone *****es and moans continuously to exhibit their displeasure.

Since you seem to want to spread false things about me to make your stance look more palatable, I will set the record straight.

Managers

I liked Davey Johnson

I wasn't a fan of Ray Miller from day one.

I was neither for nor against Mazilli.

I wasn't a supporter of Perlozzo from day one.

GMs

I never thought Thrift was anything but a fool

I wasn't a fan of the Beattie hire because I didn't like his small market only approach to things. However, I thought he made some good moves.

I think Flanny has/had the right ideas, but I didn't like his execution.

I thought Duquette had the ability to be a good GM, but he wasn't able to do what he wanted to do in many cases which led him to make short term gambles to protect his job like Jay Payton, Chad Bradford, and Jamie Walker. Of course, it is an indictment of him that he couldn't win the owners trust and that he made short term decisions designed to keep his job.

Like most of us, I've been wrong about some things in the past and I'm willing to freely admit that. I thought Jay Payton was a reasonable placeholder (nothing more, nothing less) for two years while our MiL developed outfield prospects. I was wrong. He wasn't even good enough to be a replacement level guy. I thought signing Jamie Walker for three years over Aaron Fultz for one year was a good move. I was wrong. Years ago, I thought Gary Matthews had turned a big corner when he had that great half season for us. I was wrong in that he was eventually released, but clearly I wasn't the only guy who saw this wrong based on his subsequent success and ludicrous contract. These aren't the only things I called incorrectly, but they are the major ones that come to mind.

I was also wrong in trying to have an actual conversations with you about the state of an Oriole GM. I'm going to correct that mistake now.

Thank god!

And btw, when these GMs had their jobs, you definitely defended them and to deny that is a complete joke.

In hindsight, you haven't defend them but at the time, you certainly did.

[Sports Guy]

Guys that want to bash AM, will find ways to do it, as the above shows.

Clearly more has been accomplished to improve the *long term* fortunes of the franchise in the last 13 months than in the previous 7 years. It took 9 years to get the O's in this mess, and it's unrealistic to expect them to get out of it in 13 months.

The farm system has made dramatic jumps over the past year to the point now where it is upper tier. That's an accomplishment. Arguably the top 3 prospects in the system came here on McPhail's watch.

The Trachsel trade... who cares? The guy was worthless anyway. It netted us the opportunity to get a ML look at Olson and Liz.

Weiters goes down to the wire on the deadline and you credit the signing to something that happened before the draft? Explain, please.

It's always interesting that people clamor to rebuild and then immediately get impatient during the process. Tampa was patient for about 5 years, and are reaping the rewards this year and likely for several years to come. The O's were a complete and utter mess when McPhail arrived, and it's difficult to argue that organizationally they are not moving in the right direction.

Jeez....

This is 1000% correct and anyone denying that is burying their head in the sand.

HOWEVER, this goes back to the point of this thread...While AM has done a lot of good things, those things basically stopped at the Bedard deal. So, with that being the case, how much longer does he get before people start to wonder if he is the guy to get us to where we want to go?

Does he get until ST? OD? Next July 31? ST of 2010?

[Mackus]

This is 1000% correct and anyone denying that is burying their head in the sand.

HOWEVER, this goes back to the point of this thread...While AM has done a lot of good things, those things basically stopped at the Bedard deal. So, with that being the case, how much longer does he get before people start to wonder if he is the guy to get us to where we want to go?

Does he get until ST? OD? Next July 31? ST of 2010?

I think the confusion here is what happens at this magic date where you think Macphail is no longer "the guy to get us to where we want to go".

Do you mean he gets a certain amount of time and at that time we should start to question whether he's the right guy? Do you mean he gets a certain amount of time and then we should fire him?

We should always be questioning the direction and the moves by the front office. Regardless of how good or bad the organization is, its never bad to question and ensure that each move is made with the correct overall direction in mind.

If you mean he gets x-amount of time and then we can him if we aren't a winner, well then I don't know what the answer is. As long as he's on the correct path, I don't think we should fire him. I won't judge him on his most recent individual move, I'll judge him based on his overall direction, where he's coming from and where he's planning on taking us.

[JTrea81]

Wrong on Wieters. Who was in charge of getting him signed? I'm not talking about drafting him, I'm talking about signing

Peter Angelos handled negotiations along with MacPhail personally with Boras for Wieters as he will with Teixeira. It was Angelos who stepped up in the end as Jordan said...

[Intimidator301]

If we go into ST with these three issues, I wil have leaped off the AM bandwagaon. I'm hanging on by a thread as is.

1. Markakis not extended.

2. Roberts still on the team without an extention.

3. I hear the battle at SS will be between Brandon Fahey and Luis Hernandez.

[Hank Scorpio]

This is 1000% correct and anyone denying that is burying their head in the sand.

HOWEVER, this goes back to the point of this thread...While AM has done a lot of good things, those things basically stopped at the Bedard deal. So, with that being the case, how much longer does he get before people start to wonder if he is the guy to get us to where we want to go?

Does he get until ST? OD? Next July 31? ST of 2010?

Like I mentioned earlier, he has at least until the players he has acquired in the past 15 months make it to the big leagues and contribute.

His patience and conservative approach with the young pitching is a different approach than we've had in the past, and however that turns out will be a big sticking point, IMO. He told Angelos not to expect a competitive team until 2010, and I believe that's his goal for the proverbial worm to turn.

[El Gordo]

Yeah, but think of what we'll get. A baseball empire that lasts 500 years. Take that, New York !

How long did it take to build Rome?

You can assume that it began approx. 753 B.C and the city reached a peak in 120 when the population reached to 1.2 million. so - all in all about 870 years.

http://yedda.com/questions/long_build_Rome_history_1496172195944/

[hoosiers]

This is patently false. As usual, you paint everyone into either a black or white stance when neither is true. The fact is, if someone doesn't continuously berate the team mgmt, they support them in your opinion. Not everyone *****es and moans continuously to exhibit their displeasure.

I was also wrong in trying to have an actual conversations with you about the state of an Oriole GM. I'm going to correct that mistake now.

VT, you really don't have to answer this provocation. We're all hackers here.

If we all had to answer to our dumbest opinions, believe me, you would not be the one having to do the most explaining.

[Intimidator301]

Like I mentioned earlier, he has at least until the players he has acquired in the past 15 months make it to the big leagues and contribute.

His patience and conservative approach with the young pitching is a different approach than we've had in the past, and however that turns out will be a big sticking point, IMO. He told Angelos not to expect a competitive team until 2010, and I believe that's his goal for the proverbial worm to turn.

My thing is, what is competitive in the eyes of AM? Most fans would define competitive as being a contender. AM may see it differently. I mean, we were competitive the first 3 months of this year, but that wasn't good enough to think contender.

If the views of AM differ then what the fans are expecting, I fear we the fans are in for a long and frustrating road for many years to come.

And then I ask, can the Orioles survive in Baltimore if we're looking at 10 more years like the last 11? Most young people wouldn't even notice now if the team left town, and that's just sad.