Your Opinion- Hypothetical Player Stat Comparison

[Old#5fan]

Really?

Pena has 76 runs scored and 102 rbi's with 31 HR's. Since each HR counts as both a run scored and an rbi, the net number of runs produced is 147.

Markakis has 106 runs scored and 87 rbi with 20 HR's. Thus a net number of runs produced of 173.

So, Markakis produces more runs.

Pean has 496 AB's and 96 walks or 592 plate appearances. So, his average of runs produced per plate appearance is 0.248.

Markakis has 591 AB's and 99 walks or 690 plate appearances. So, his average of runs produced per plate appearance is 0.251.

So, Markakis produces more runs per plate appearance.

So, exactly how does Pena produce more runs?

Simple, he has fewer hits and more outs, yet produces more runs. So his runs produced per hit is greater.

[TakebackOPACY]

At least you do understand my point and I do understand yours as well. However, I would guess that Markakis when batting third probably had an above average chance at driving in runs as often times Roberts would lead off a game either with a double or a single/walk, etc. and steal second. Instead of driving Roberts in it seemed to me like Markakis would be more prone to walk in that situation. Pena, on the other hand is more prone to driving himself in with the long ball which is why I see the big difference in rbi, not that Pena had that many more opportunities. It just wouldn't make sense.

Specifically for Markakis and Pena, these stats are available. With runners in scoring position (on 2nd and/or 3rd):

Markakis: 47 hits in 151 ab's (.311). 34 walks (.435 obp), 9 doubles, 1 triple, 7 HR's.

Pena: 37 hits in 144 ab's (.257). 44 walks (.417 obp) {For some reason, we're ignoring that Pena walks A LOT!}, 7 doubles, 1 triple, 10 HR's.

The results: Markakis 66 RBI, Pena 75 RBI... BUT...

14 ab's and 23 plate appearances for Pena with runners in scoring position came with the bases loaded. I think that means he walked with the bases loaded 9 times! He got 17 RBI from bases loaded situations. He was 3-for-14.

Only 9 ab's and 10 plate appearances for Markakis came with the bases loaded. He only walked with the bases loaded once. He was 3-for-9.

Pena had 9 ab's and 16 plate appearances with men on 2nd and 3rd.

Markakis had 7 ab's and 13 plate appearances with men on 2nd and 3rd.

Anyway, you get the idea. Pena had 9 more RBI with runners in scoring position than Markakis, but he had 16 more plate appearances with two runners in scoring position than Markakis had. The difference in RBI over the season in these cases was 11.

[Lucky Jim]

How many walk off homers has Pena had versus Markakis? How many game winning hits has Pena had versus Markakis? You overlook them completely, why? I haven't looked them up but I bet Pena has more.

The fact remains which try as you may, you cannot deny that Pena has driven in more runs and hit more homers while making more outs than Markakis which makes him more efficient in producing runs.

In other words his hits mean more to his team than Markakis to his team. Nick is not more proficient at driving in runs because Pena has done more with fewer hits. One of the reasons is he hits more homers which automatically produce at a minimum one run regardless of who is on base.

Markakis is more of a walker than a HR hitter. Pena is a HR hitter period. Give me a HR over a walk anyday of the week.

Again your are completely missing the importance of this comparison which is to show the difference in types of hitters and how merely using OBP as the measure of who is a better hitter is folly IMO.

This is truly amazing. So let me get this right - a guy who gets 100 hits in 600 ABs which result 30 HRs and 50 RBIs (somehow) is more "efficient" (and somehow better) than a guy who goes 200 for 600 which results in 20 Hrs and 80 RBIs?

Obviously a 30% and 50% "efficiency" in HRs and RBIs is better than 10% and 13%.

This is pretty fantastic stuff for a weekend morning. Way to start it off right, O5F!

[Old#5fan]

Specifically for Markakis and Pena, these stats are available. With runners in scoring position (on 2nd and/or 3rd):

Markakis: 47 hits in 151 ab's (.311). 34 walks (.435 obp), 9 doubles, 1 triple, 7 HR's.

Pena: 37 hits in 144 ab's (.257). 44 walks (.417 obp) {For some reason, we're ignoring that Pena walks A LOT!}, 7 doubles, 1 triple, 10 HR's.

The results: Markakis 66 RBI, Pena 75 RBI... BUT...

14 ab's and 23 plate appearances for Pena with runners in scoring position came with the bases loaded. I think that means he walked with the bases loaded 9 times! He got 17 RBI from bases loaded situations. He was 3-for-14.

Only 9 ab's and 10 plate appearances for Markakis came with the bases loaded. He only walked with the bases loaded once. He was 3-for-9.

Pena had 9 ab's and 16 plate appearances with men on 2nd and 3rd.

Markakis had 7 ab's and 13 plate appearances with men on 2nd and 3rd.

Anyway, you get the idea. Pena had 9 more RBI with runners in scoring position than Markakis, but he had 16 more plate appearances with two runners in scoring position than Markakis had. The difference in RBI over the season in these cases was 11.

Your research is superb and shows what others have said about rbi opportunites being important. Howver, Pena still has more rib's with a considerably lower BA than Markakis, yet not that many more opportunities to explain it. I still think this shows he is a better run producer as he does it with much fewer hits albeit somewhat more opportunities.

[Moose Milligan]

True, same as if a player received Gold Glove Award votes. I certainly agree with that 100%. As far as Pena verus Markakis. If I needed a walk to win a game in the bottom of the 9th with the bases loaded, I would take Markakis over Pena. If I needed a grand slam, I would take Pena in a heartbeat.

Yeah, Nick has a higher batting average in that situation. I said you needed a hit, not a granny.

[Lucky Jim]

By O5F's logic, the more outs a power hitter makes the more likely he is to be good (or efficient.) In other words, a power hitter who makes little contact is benefited by his low contact skills.

Which is truly superb.

Thus, by all accounts, the greatest players of all time are Rob Deer, Russell Branyan and Dave Kingman.

Year Ag Tm  Lg  G   AB    R    H   2B 3B  HR  RBI  SB CS  BB  SO   BA   OBP   SLG *OPS+  TB   SH  SF IBB HBP GDP

1986 25 MIL AL 134  466   75  108  17  3  33   86   5  2  72 179  .232  .336  .494  120  230   2   3   3   3   4

2002 26 TOT    134  378   50   86  13  1  24   56   4  3  51 151  .228  .320  .458  102  173   0   4   3   2   5

1982 33 NYM NL 149  535   80  109   9  1  37   99   4  0  59 156  .204  .285  .432   99  231   3   6   9   4  11

All of whom would have been better than Ricky Henderson in 1990:

1990 31 OAK AL 136  489  119  159  33  3  28   61  65 10  97  60  .325  .439  .577  188  282   2   2   2   4  13

[Sports Guy]

I can't believe you guys are wasting your time with this.

[Bobby Young RW]

Let's just throw in another considertion. Pena has the opportunity to face Oriole pitching !?!? while Markakis gets to face Ray's pitching. I'll let one of you stats guys factor this out of the numbers but I think I know what we'll see. Hands down Nick is a better hitter! Case closed!

[TGO]

By O5F's logic, the more outs a power hitter makes the more likely he is to be good (or efficient.) In other words, a power hitter who makes little contact is benefited by his low contact skills.

Indeed. Surprising that someone so well versed in Logic 101 would allow himself to rely on an argument which, when taken to its logical extreme, sounds not only completely ridiculous but fundamentally at odds with some of his past statements and opinions.

[Lucky Jim]

Deer's, Branyan's and Kingman's years were also better than these years...

ear Ag Tm  Lg  G   AB    R    H   2B 3B  HR  RBI  SB CS  BB  SO   BA   OBP   SLG *OPS+  TB   SH  SF IBB HBP GDP +--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+----+---+---+---+---+---+1939 20 BOS AL 149  565  131  185  44 11  31  145   2  1 107  64  .327  .436  .609  160  344   3           2  10 MVP-41940 21 BOS AL 144  561  134  193  43 14  23  113   4  4  96  54  .344  .442  .594  162  333   1           3  13 MVP-14,AS1941 22 BOS AL 143  456  135  185  33  3  37  120   2  4 147  27  .406  .553  .735  235  335   0           3  10 MVP-2,AS1942 23 BOS AL 150  522  141  186  34  5  36  137   3  2 145  51  .356  .499  .648  217  338   0           4  12 MVP-2,AS1946 27 BOS AL 150  514  142  176  37  8  38  123   0  0 156  44  .342  .497  .667  215  343   0           2  12 MVP-1,AS1947 28 BOS AL 156  528  125  181  40  9  32  114   0  1 162  47  .343  .499  .634  205  335   1           2  10 MVP-2,AS

...by Ted Williams.

[TGO]

Let's just throw in another considertion. Pena has the opportunity to face Oriole pitching !?!? while Markakis gets to face Ray's pitching. I'll let one of you stats guys factor this out of the numbers but I think I know what we'll see. Hands down Nick is a better hitter! Case closed!

Funny you should bring that up.

Both are hitting extremely well against the other's team this year. Nick has a .970 OPS and Pena a 1.115 OPS.

Nick has 6 RBI against the Rays and Pena has 25 against the Orioles.

I'm sure these stats will somehow be turned against Markakis.

[TakebackOPACY]

Your research is superb and shows what others have said about rbi opportunites being important. Howver, Pena still has more rib's with a considerably lower BA than Markakis, yet not that many more opportunities to explain it. I still think this shows he is a better run producer as he does it with much fewer hits albeit somewhat more opportunities.

As defined as RBI per hit, I don't think that the 'efficiency' is worth as much as you're making it out to be worth. Pena struck out 51 times in 144 ab's (190 pa's) with runners in scoring position. Markakis only struck out 34 times in 151 ab's and 185 pa's with runners in scoring position. I'm assuming those strike outs did not advance the runner. And they did not help prolong the inning.

Anyway, despite my questioning the value of Pena's efficiency as you've defined it. I think that a close analysis by a genius would probably prove that Pena would drive in about the same or maybe a few more runs than Markakis (maybe, just giving you the benefit of the doubt) and Markakis would score a at least a handful more runs than Pena over the course of a season if the other 8 players in their respective lineups were league average across the board in all categories. Of course that's just speculation.

Ignoring that I give Markakis the slight edge there, I'll use this as my tie breaker: The player behind Markakis would drive in the player in front of Markakis a few times more times than the player behind Pena would drive in the player in front of Pena, all other players besides Markakis and Pena being equal.

[Moose Milligan]

I can't believe you guys are wasting your time with this.

I can't believe you haven't joined the fray :laughlol:

[Old#5fan]

This is truly amazing. So let me get this right - a guy who gets 100 hits in 600 ABs which result 30 HRs and 50 RBIs (somehow) is more "efficient" (and somehow better) than a guy who goes 200 for 600 which results in 20 Hrs and 80 RBIs?

Obviously a 30% and 50% "efficiency" in HRs and RBIs is better than 10% and 13%.

This is pretty fantastic stuff for a weekend morning. Way to start it off right, O5F!

When you look at the end result of rbi's for his team, yes as he is doing more with less, thus maximizing his ability. Look at my example of the two players. It illustrates this.

[Moose Milligan]

Deer's, Branyan's and Kingman's years were also better than these years...

ear Ag Tm  Lg  G   AB    R    H   2B 3B  HR  RBI  SB CS  BB  SO   BA   OBP   SLG *OPS+  TB   SH  SF IBB HBP GDP +--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+----+---+---+---+---+---+1939 20 BOS AL 149  565  131  185  44 11  31  145   2  1 107  64  .327  .436  .609  160  344   3           2  10 MVP-41940 21 BOS AL 144  561  134  193  43 14  23  113   4  4  96  54  .344  .442  .594  162  333   1           3  13 MVP-14,AS1941 22 BOS AL 143  456  135  185  33  3  37  120   2  4 147  27  .406  .553  .735  235  335   0           3  10 MVP-2,AS1942 23 BOS AL 150  522  141  186  34  5  36  137   3  2 145  51  .356  .499  .648  217  338   0           4  12 MVP-2,AS1946 27 BOS AL 150  514  142  176  37  8  38  123   0  0 156  44  .342  .497  .667  215  343   0           2  12 MVP-1,AS1947 28 BOS AL 156  528  125  181  40  9  32  114   0  1 162  47  .343  .499  .634  205  335   1           2  10 MVP-2,AS

...by Ted Williams.

Deer had a great 'stache, too. <img src = "http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/pics/rob_deer_autograph.jpg">

and even an SI cover: <img src = "http://misterirrelevant.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/rob-deer.jpg">

Is that a mullet I see? Rob Deer for the Hall of Fame!