Your Opinion- Hypothetical Player Stat Comparison

[Frobby]

I don't have anything to add to the discussion of who is a better player RIGHT NOW, besides what others have said. But I think it is important for Old#5Fan to understand that one of the reasons people on this board are so high on Nick is that he is doing what he is doing as a very young player.

Nick is 24 years old. At that age, Carlos Pena hit .242 with 19 HR and 52 RBI. Pena NEVER had more RBI in a season than Nick has this year until last season, when Pena was 29 years old.

Chances are very high that by the time Nick is 29 he will be putting up numbers that won't even leave room for debate as to whether he is a better player than Carlos Pena. (Not that there's much room to debate it now.) Players tend to peak around age 27, so Nick is likely to just keep getting better and better the next few years, and he's already extemely good.

[snatch311]

Markakis is 39th in OBI%. That's the fraction of runners on base who were driven in during a batters plate appearances.

Pena is 46th in the same stat.

Markakis is better at driving in runners.

He also both runs better and has a higher OBP.

That means he is obviously better at scoring runs.

So to recap, Markakis drove runs in at a higher rate. He scores runs at a higher rate. He is better.

[snatch311]

Oh, and this is bearing in mind that the Orioles faced the toughest pitching schedule in all of baseball.

They placed 5 of the top 8, and 8 of the top 18 in terms of difficulty in pitching opposition (OBP)

[wickedwitch]

old fan...What exactly is the purpose of this thread?

Do you think anyone gives a rats patootie that you like Pena more than Markakis?

Given the number of responses, apparently a lot of people do.

[bird watcher]

I can't believe this poster can enjoy rehashing this same argument over and over and over and over and over and over.............:eektf::eektf:

8 pages?

[El Gordo]

Newsflash! Carlos Pena is a better RBI man than is Nick Markakis. The following charts make up what I'll call RBI Success Rate. They were simple to make. The first column shows the number of baserunners. The third column adds one to that number (for the batter) and multiplies it by the number of PAs in that situation for the total number of RBI Opportunities. The last column simply divides the actual RBI by the RBI Opportunities for the RBI Success Rate:

CP	PA	RBI Opps	RBI	0	299	299	18	0.0601	194	388	27	0.0702	88	264	40	0.1523	26	104	17	0.163607	1055	102	0.097NM	PA	RBI Opps	RBI	0	375	375	10	0.0271	235	470	39	0.0832	73	219	28	0.1283	10	40	10	0.250693	1104	87	0.079AH	PA	RBI Opps	RBI	0	348	348	17	0.0491	202	404	36	0.0892	87	261	37	0.1423	21	84	17	0.202658	1097	107	0.098

Just for kicks I added Aubrey Huff's stats.

Pena averaged 1.74 RBI Opps per PA.

Markakis averaged 1.59 RBI Opps per PA.

Huff averaged 1.67 RBI Opps per PA.

Pena averaged 96.7 RBI per 1000 opps.

Markakis averaged 78.8 RBI per 1000 opps.

Huff averaged 97.5 RBI per 1000 opps.

Newflash!!! The Orioles don't ask Markakis to be their RBI man, that is Huff's role.

Therefore arguing who is the better hitter based on RBI is just plain silly.

Great post as usual. Fscinating stuff. How does your success rate differ from OBI%?

[Old#5fan]

Tell us what you think efficiency means. You do realize that there are other ways to get an RBI besides getting a hit? Don't you?

Of course I do. I am a major proponent of players who make productive outs as in sac flies or sacrifice bunts as opposed to non-productive outs . Possibly Pena is also better at Markakis in those things as well, which would be another reason to consider him as preferable.

[Old#5fan]

Actually to flip this illogical argument around: Doesn't the fact that Markakis only has 15 fewer RBIs but with fewer opportunities illustrates that Markakis is in fact the one "doing more with less"?

How so? He hits for a higher batting average which means he is getting a higher percentage of hits as opposed to outs yet fewer rbi's. I don't buy the fewer opportunities as a sole reason. Even with fewer opportunities the fact he hits better average wise should mean he has as many if not more rbi's than Pena if he was doing more with less. He's not. He is actually underachieving in my view while Pena is overachieving when you compare their significant difference in BA.

[ledzepp8]

Of course I do. I am a major proponent of players who make productive outs as opposed to non-productive outs as in sac flies or sacrifice bunts. Possibly Pena is also better at Markakis in those things as well, which would be another reason to consider him as preferable.

Maybe I'm not reading this correctly. Are you saying that sac flies and sac bunts are non-productive outs?

Seriously though, how many different stats do people have to post showing you that Markakis is a better player before you'll leave this fantasy world you've concocted for yourself?

[ledzepp8]

How so? He hits for a higher batting average which means he is getting ahigher percentage of hits as opposed to outs yet fewer rbi's. I don't buy the fewer opportunities as a sole reason. Even with fewer opportunities the fact he hits better average wise should mean he has as many if not more rbi's than Pena if he was doing more with less. He's not. He is actually underachieving in my view while Pena is overachieving when you compare their significant difference in BA.

And yet you have been repeatedly shown that you are wrong about all of this.

[Old#5fan]

Newsflash! Carlos Pena is a better RBI man than is Nick Markakis. The following charts make up what I'll call RBI Success Rate. They were simple to make. The first column shows the number of baserunners. The third column adds one to that number (for the batter) and multiplies it by the number of PAs in that situation for the total number of RBI Opportunities. The last column simply divides the actual RBI by the RBI Opportunities for the RBI Success Rate:

CP	PA	RBI Opps	RBI	0	299	299	18	0.0601	194	388	27	0.0702	88	264	40	0.1523	26	104	17	0.163607	1055	102	0.097NM	PA	RBI Opps	RBI	0	375	375	10	0.0271	235	470	39	0.0832	73	219	28	0.1283	10	40	10	0.250693	1104	87	0.079AH	PA	RBI Opps	RBI	0	348	348	17	0.0491	202	404	36	0.0892	87	261	37	0.1423	21	84	17	0.202658	1097	107	0.098

Just for kicks I added Aubrey Huff's stats.

Pena averaged 1.74 RBI Opps per PA.

Markakis averaged 1.59 RBI Opps per PA.

Huff averaged 1.67 RBI Opps per PA.

Pena averaged 96.7 RBI per 1000 opps.

Markakis averaged 78.8 RBI per 1000 opps.

Huff averaged 97.5 RBI per 1000 opps.

Newflash!!! The Orioles don't ask Markakis to be their RBI man, that is Huff's role.

Therefore arguing who is the better hitter based on RBI is just plain silly.

Other than your last statement thanks for proving my point for me! My argument was just based on RBI (although that is primarily true) but also on doing more with less hitting-wise.

[Old#5fan]

Maybe I'm not reading this correctly. Are you saying that sac flies and sac bunts are non-productive outs?

No the opposite, I admit that was poorly worded.

Seriously though, how many different stats do people have to post showing you that Markakis is a better player before you'll leave this fantasy world you've concocted for yourself?

The last stats posted by the extremely astute 1970 support my position though, apparently you missed the post? It was probably the best on the entire thread (other than the last sentence).

[Moose Milligan]

Old5Fan has been beaten worse than a midget in a burlap sack and yet refuses to cave. Unbelievable.

[Old#5fan]

Old5Fan has been beaten worse than a midget in a burlap sack and yet refuses to cave. Unbelievable.

I yield to no one as I have not been beaten. 1970's post proves it.

[Lucky Jim]

I yield to no one as I have not been beaten. 1970's post proves it.

I think the following just about sums it all up: "I move for no man." For details, see below:

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