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IMO Mussina Would Never Have Made the HOF Had He Remained an Oriole


Old#5fan

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I don't blame Mussina for leaving, nor do I think Angelos handled the negotiations well. No doubt it was a gaffe on his part. But I don't think Mussina was terribly "wronged" in any case. At the end of the day the Orioles were willing to give Mussina a very fair contract.

Like I said, nobody was "wronged." But the Os never should have let this get to the "end of the day," as you put it. Moose made it very clear he wanted to do a deal before the season started or would explore his free agent options. That's pretty typical. He made a demand that was reasonable, and far less than he ended up getting. Angelos stupidly decided to play games, and let things get to the point where the Yankees blew him out of the water.

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Didn't we score like the same amount of runs as the Yankees this year?

So what? Our bullpen was horrid after Sherrill went down, Bradford was traded and Johnson got hurt. They would have likely blown the lead on every one of Mussina's last five wins. No way he would have won 20, with the Orioles Blowpen.

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So what? Our bullpen was horrid after Sherrill went down, Bradford was traded and Johnson got hurt. They would have likely blow the lead on every one of Mussina's last five wins. No way he would have won 20, with the Orioles Blowpen.

I am not going to even bother responding to you.

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I am not going to even bother responding to you.

Why because your position lacks any shred of common sense (baseball wise) as you seemingly over look the vast differences in bullpen performance between Mussina's team and the Orioles over the second half of the season:confused::eek::eektf:

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I think it is probably fair to estimate that pitching for the Yankees instead of the Orioles allowed Mussina to win an extra 15-20 games over the last 8 years. And yes, he probably would not have won 20 games this year if he had been pitching for the Orioles. But that has more to do with how lousy the Orioles have been recently than how good the Yankees have been. When Mussina was an Oriole, he won a lot of the time, even though the team was only about average during his 10 years here.

As an Oriole: 147-81 (.645), 2009.2 IP, 799 ER, 3.58 ERA

As a Yankee: 123-72 (.631), 1553.0 IP, 659 ER, 3.82 ERA

I can see the Don Sutton analogy, but Mussina has been a lot better than Sutton.

ERA+: 122 vs. 108

Winning %: .638 vs. .559

I think that Mussina, had he gotten average run/defensive support from the Orioles, would have been something like 116-79 over the last eight years. The Yankees supported Mussina with about half a run a game more offense than the Orioles scored over the same period. But Mussina's FIP ERA is half a run a game lower than his real ERA, giving some credence to the idea that the Yanks have generally had a poor defense.

No, Mussina probably doesn't win 20 with the O's, but this year he barely did that with the Yanks. But I don't see any individual season where he was likely to lose more than a couple wins.

And yes, I acknowledge that run support is all over the place, and he could have had Jeremy Guthrie luck for a few years. But he also could have had Radhames Liz or Garret Olson luck, too - they both had as good run support this year as Mussina did any year he was with the Yanks.

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Like I said, nobody was "wronged." But the Os never should have let this get to the "end of the day," as you put it. Moose made it very clear he wanted to do a deal before the season started or would explore his free agent options. That's pretty typical. He made a demand that was reasonable, and far less than he ended up getting. Angelos stupidly decided to play games, and let things get to the point where the Yankees blew him out of the water.

Fair enough, and just to make my position clear as well, I was never absolving Angelos of some of the blame.

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Why because your position lacks any shred of common sense (baseball wise) as you seemingly over look the vast differences in bullpen performance between Mussina's team and the Orioles over the second half of the season:confused::eek::eektf:

I think he is done responding just like everyone else (myself included) should be.

Look, we get your stance. Well, we don't "get" it per se but we know what it is.

You dislike Mike Mussina. You think he is overrated. You used to think that he didn't belong in the HOF because he never won 20 games. Now that he's won 20 you begrudgingly admit that he is in but only because he chokes and his bullpen saves him.

How many different threads/posts do you need to write to say the same thing? Do you enjoy antagonizing the board that much?

You state that he never would have won 20 games if he was on the O's -- a fair statement and probaby an accurate one. Yet it somehow devolves into another pissing contest.

Give it up, sir. There is nothing left for you to say/do here. Everyone knows what your stance is. I'd hope by now that everyone also understands that no amount of logic will ever sway your opinion -- not one iota.

I suggest you drop any Mike Mussina/Kyle Boller/Nick Markakis threads/posts in the future. It literally adds nothing to the board and makes us, as a community, look bad as a whole when one of our best posters (Drungo) is forced to spar with you time and time again with no positive outcome.

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I think he is done responding just like everyone else (myself included) should be.

Look, we get your stance. Well, we don't "get" it per se but we know what it is.

You dislike Mike Mussina. You think he is overrated. You used to think that he didn't belong in the HOF because he never won 20 games. Now that he's won 20 you begrudgingly admit that he is in but only because he chokes and his bullpen saves him.

How many different threads/posts do you need to write to say the same thing? Do you enjoy antagonizing the board that much?

You state that he never would have won 20 games if he was on the O's -- a fair statement and probaby an accurate one. Yet it somehow devolves into another pissing contest.

Give it up, sir. There is nothing left for you to say/do here. Everyone knows what your stance is. I'd hope by now that everyone also understands that no amount of logic will ever sway your opinion -- not one iota.

I suggest you drop any Mike Mussina/Kyle Boller/Nick Markakis threads/posts in the future. It literally adds nothing to the board and makes us, as a community, look bad as a whole when one of our best posters (Drungo) is forced to spar with you time and time again with no positive outcome.

Since you don't (to my knowledge) have any unwritten higher right than anyone else to speak collectively for the entire OH I am giving your request the equivilent of the circular file and asking you politely if you ever wish to address me directly again, to stop this practice of acting like you are the entire board. As far as my adding nothing to the board and making the community look bad, I see that as elitism and unfounded commentary unless you have somehow surveyed the majority of the OH on this very subject (who knows, maybe you have). I also find it untrue because posters are seemingly always willing to engage in a debate with me even on takes that you view as a " " contest. In short, your view is not necessarily representive of the entire OH to my knowledge.

Regardless, if my threads and posts are so worthless as you suggest and if enough posters feel the way you do, of course I will "stop agitating the board" as you put it. However, that has to come from someone in authority and I don't see that as being you. Sorry.

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Since you don't (to my knowledge) have any unwritten higher right than anyone else to speak collectively for the entire OH I am giving your request the equivilent of the circular file and asking you politely if you ever wish to address me directly again, to stop this practice of acting like you are the entire board. As far as my adding nothing to the board and making the community look bad, I see that as elitism and unfounded commentary unless you have somehow surveyed the majority of the OH on this very subject (who knows, maybe you have). I also find it untrue because posters are seemingly always willing to engage in a debate with me even on takes that you view as a " " contest. In short, your view is not necesarily representive of the entire OH to my knowledge.

Regardless, if my threads and posts are so worthless as you suggest and if enough posters feel the way you do, of course I will "stop agitating the board" as you put it. However, that has to come from someone in authority and I don't see that as being you. Sorry.

Cool man...

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BTW, sorry if it appears that I am "speaking for the board" but you know what? Maybe I am. I believe, based on reading countless threads, that the majority of posters would agree with my previous assessment.

And just because I'm not a mod, doesn't mean I can't ask you to stop making the board look bad, which is what you're doing. I take a lot of pride in being able to say I'm an active and (I hope) respected member of this community.

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BTW, sorry if it appears that I am "speaking for the board" but you know what? Maybe I am. I believe, based on reading countless threads, that the majority of posters would agree with my previous assessment.

And just because I'm not a mod, doesn't mean I can't ask you to stop making the board look bad, which is what you're doing. I take a lot of pride in being able to say I'm an active and (I hope) respected member of this community.

I have zero problem with you expressing these sentiments as an individual poster. However, when you act like the whole board agrees, I must take issue. You now state "Maybe I am" speaking for the entire OH.

I can also state equally "Maybe you are not," as your position is no more valid than mine unless as I already mentioned you have indeed surveyed the entire board and the majority agrees with you.

So bottom line, just state your views from now on and not as if collectively speaking for the entire OH, and I am fine with that even though I may disagree.

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I have zero problem with you expressing these sentiments as an individual poster. However, when you act like the whole board agrees, I must take issue. You now state "Maybe I am" speaking for the entire HO.

I can also state equally "Maybe you are not," as your position is no more valid than mine unless as I already mentioned you have indeed surveyed the entire board and the majority agrees with you.

So bottom line, just state your views from now on and I am fine with that even though I disagree.

Fine, it is my view that the entire OH is sick of you.

That's the last I'll be posting here (in this thread).

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Although I cannot change the way you see things, I am sorry you feel that way. I also sincerely hope you mean you are only done with this thread and not leaving the OH because of me. In my view that would be over-reacting to the extreme as all you need to do is just not read my posts or threads.:confused:

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