IMO Mussina Would Never Have Made the HOF Had He Remained an Oriole

[Old#5fan]

Entire offseason. Let me mull over what to change it to. I thought we agreed on something, but I don't remember what it was. It won't be offensive, though.

I think it was something like: I bow to the knowledge and wisdom of LookitsPuck.

Was that it?

[Old#5fan]

Good, good... you finally admit the way you view baseball is as complete as a colorblind person's vision. Now we're getting somewhere.

Yeah, but just because someone might be color blind and say the sky is green, it doesn't mean they are stupid or lying now does it? In truth, it just means they see the same colors the majority of others see only differently.

[ledzepp8]

Yeah, but just because someone might be color blind and say the sky is green, it doesn't mean they are stupid or lying now does it? In truth, it just means they see the same colors the majority of others see only differently.

No. It means they're wrong. That's all it means.

[LookitsPuck]

That may have been it. But I think something more appropriate for you to put in your sig would be:

"I will judge players based on their statistics and not emotion. I will judge players based on their statistics and not emotion. I will judge players based on their statistics and not emotion. I will judge players based on their statistics and not emotion."

[Ven6]

That is funny.

For the record, I admit to liking having Old#5fan around. Livens things up. And surely offers a different perspective.

Plus it's amusing to see him fend off every one and every argument every time.

[orayole]

It's good to have differing opinions. If everyone had the same opinion the board would be dead.

[birdman57]

as there is no way he would have ever won twenty games in a season. Now that he has acieved this milestone (thanks to his high powered Yankee offense and best closer to have ever lived) I think he makes it (much as it pains me to post).

He now has to be looked as very comparable to Don Sutton (another guy I personally thought was not HOF deserving) and Mussina owes this all to leaving the Orioles for the right team to enable this. I certainly took him a long time to take advantage of the Yankee assets but the fact remains he has done it. I see no barrier now to his HOF entrance eventually.

I tend to agree with you on the Orioles but having him here would have made us better IMHO. As for the HOF, it is my opinion he will NOT make it because he lacks the magic number: 300 wins. I doubt he can come back and duplicate this season by a long shot..

[DrungoHazewood]

No. It means they're wrong. That's all it means.

What he said. No, a colorblind person might not be stupid or lying. But all opinions are not equally valid. If someone is convinced that 2 + 2 = 7 they're mistaken, they're wrong, they've been misled, they've been taught poor math skills, or maybe something else. But 2 + 2 does not equal 7.

[DrungoHazewood]

It's good to have differing opinions. If everyone had the same opinion the board would be dead.

Agreed, but we mustn't allow ourselves to believe that all opinions, including outlandish and demonstrably false ones, deserve to be respected and treated as valid.

[The Wedge]

That is funny.

For the record, I admit to liking having Old#5fan around. Livens things up. And surely offers a different perspective.

Plus it's amusing to see him fend off every one and every argument every time.

Replace "fend off" with "brush off" and I agree with that statement.

[Old#5fan]

What he said. No, a colorblind person might not be stupid or lying. But all opinions are not equally valid. If someone is convinced that 2 + 2 = 7 they're mistaken, they're wrong, they've been misled, they've been taught poor math skills, or maybe something else. But 2 + 2 does not equal 7.

In the world of math or statistics you are correct beyond dispute. In the world of evaluating a baseball player as far as each individual's perspective where both stats and observation along with experience in watching the game and its playes over time, I beg to differ. There is no absolute right or wrong if you use that particular combination in evaluating a player. It is always going to be at least somewhat subjective as players are not just numbers at least in my view.

Additionally, even the identical stats may be viewed or perceived differently, as the way I view the stats of Carlos Pena versus those of Nick Markakis. That makes me wrong in your eyes, but judging any player's performance is a subjective task (if you use a combination of means including observation and experience) who is to say my view is invalid? I mean plenty can say it but I don't have to believe it. That is the reason I post here, to present my view on things. Right or wrong to the majority is of little significance to me. Believe it or not, I also learn a fascinating amount of things from the OH as well.

[The Wedge]

In the world of math or statistics you are correct beyond dispute. In the world of evaluating a baseball player as far as each individual's perspective where both stats and observation along with experience in watching the game and its playes over time, I beg to differ. There is no absolute right or wrong if you use that particular combination in evaluating a player. It is always going to be at least somewhat subjective as players are not just numbers at least in my view.

You do realize that when you refer to Jon like this, you are essentially accusing him of not actually watching the games, right?

He's not some dude, holed up in a dingy moldy basement, only reading stat sheets and playing fantasy baseball. He's as capable of you of opening his eyes and evaluating based on what he sees on the field.

The difference, the striking fundamental difference, between you two is that you, to the point of frustrating stubbornness, refuse to acknowledge statistics as a viable measuring stick, while Jon embraces the statistic as a useful evaluative tool to measure what you see on the field.

If you search hard enough, you'll find any number of times where Jon has wrestled with why a stat doesn't mesh with what you see on-field. He's not a fantasy player with blinders on to the machinations of real life. I feel you unjustly paint him so time and time again.

[Old#5fan]

You do realize that when you refer to Jon like this, you are essentially accusing him of not actually watching the games, right?

He's not some dude, holed up in a dingy moldy basement, only reading stat sheets and playing fantasy baseball. He's as capable of you of opening his eyes and evaluating based on what he sees on the field.

The difference, the striking fundamental difference, between you two is that you, to the point of frustrating stubbornness, refuse to acknowledge statistics as a viable measuring stick, while Jon embraces the statistic as a useful evaluative tool to measure what you see on the field.

If you search hard enough, you'll find any number of times where Jon has wrestled with why a stat doesn't mesh with what you see on-field. He's not a fantasy player with blinders on to the machinations of real life. I feel you unjustly paint him so time and time again.

Well your take is to the extreme side of things. I don't view Jon as how you describe. I know he watches the games. However, where he obviously thinks I am clueless when it comes to use of statistics, I view his observation skills of players to be less accurate than mine, probably only because I have been around longer.

I am quite sure he will equal or surpass me some day at this (being able to physically observe a player and evaluate) but I do question whether he has actually tried or successfully done some of the skill things in baseball, like throw a curve ball, or dive and make an oustanding catch. I could be totally wrong, but I do not think he is some sort of stats geek only like you accuse. I think he has some skills in observing and evaluation a player independent of statistical analysis, just that is not his strong suit.

I just place my major emphasis on judging a player by what I see on the field with stats as a useful measure of performance or what has occurred, although they don't measure anything. Where I find stats about meaningless are as predictors of anything. I strongly disagree with Jon in that regard.

[The Wedge]

I am quite sure he will equal or surpass me some day at this (being able to physically observe a player and evaluate) but I do question whether he has actually tried or successfully done some of the skill things in baseball, like throw a curve ball, or dive and make an oustanding catch.

Holy god, dude...

If someone said this to you, what would your reaction be? I'm plainly honestly curious...how would you take someone saying this to you/about you? That first statement...I mean, guy (I say this because I'd rather call you by your real name but don't know it), get down off that lofty pedestal of yours and join us regular people again.

[Old#5fan]

Holy god, dude...

If someone said this to you, what would your reaction be? I'm plainly honestly curious...how would you take someone saying this to you/about you? That first statement...I mean, guy (I say this because I'd rather call you by your real name but don't know it), get down off that lofty pedestal of yours and join us regular people again.

I meant solely evaluate the player on observation. I know he can evaluate a player statistically a million times better than I. I didn't word that very well. Put it this way, he evaluates a player statistically a billion times better than I , and I believe I can evaluate a player by observation of his physical skills probably twice as good as he, but than again I have been observing players for over 44 years! He probably has maybe half of those years at the most.

As far as me being on a pedestal. Now that is truly funny. It must be an underground pedestal!:laughlol:

Also just because someone follows the game doesn't mean they played the game very much. I have friends like that. I didn't mean anything by it. It is not anything negative, it just makes it harder to relate to what is happening on the field if you never tried doing it yourself. In other words, the physical side of baseball.