What are your expectations for Santander and Hays in 2021?

[HowAboutThat]

23 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Just to provide you an example..Seattle spent twice the money the Os did in 2019 and only had 400K more fans.  

That was wasted money. Wasting money is unwise.

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, RZNJ said:

SG II actually is pretty new. 

By SG II do you mean when he rejoined the community after being banned with his original account or just when he came back after being away?

[Sports Guy]

22 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

But they didn't keep winning and didn't build it the right way.   We can quibble as to what happened there but the issue is that they didn't.

I should have been clear in my previous post, even when they were winning, attendance was middle of the pack.  It was never at the top, so it's not like attendance was ever amazing.  

Again, let's find a team that has a high payroll that is perpetually in the middle of the pack to the bottom half of attendance for years on end. 

Ok but your arguments are all over the place. 
 

You said they don’t have a pile of money but yet they proved they could have a high payroll.  That isn’t something that is disputable.  They clearly can spend more than they are now.

They are choosing not to because of “rebuilding” but that’s bs at this point.  

[Sports Guy]

16 minutes ago, Philip said:

That was wasted money. Wasting money is unwise.

Of course..but he asked for a team that did it so I supplied him with one.

[Sports Guy]

32 minutes ago, owknows said:

I'm not reading anything into what you're saying. You're saying it. Your words are out there for anyone who cares enough to read them. I'm offering you just a little advice. You may have noticed that you find yourself in conflict on this board. I'd suggest that maybe if you approached your discussions a little differently that wouldn't happen.

Two relatively modest suggestions...  Don't presume to know the motivations of others. And don't misrepresent the positions of others and then attack your misrepresentations. You'd find yourself in a lot fewer conflicts if you do. Just a suggestion. And I've spent far too much time of this matter already. And the longer I spend the preachier I sound..  I don't want to suggest I'm without faults... I'm clearly not.

As for the Orioles and whether they're trying to field the best team in 2021... have you considered the possibility that fielding the best team in 2021 isn't necessarily the compatible with fielding the best team in 2022, 2023, 2024, 2025,?

And that maybe ownership and management are more interested in sustainability?

No h haven’t considered that because it makes no logical sense.  You can field a better team in 2021 while still also being good long term.  If you can’t, you don’t deserve to be in the business.

And besides, that doesn’t answer the question I asked.  You are saying I’m assuming they aren’t trying to win in 2021. Show me an argument that suggests they are trying to win in 2021.  That’s what I asked you. All you did was try to spin it into something else.

You are jumping on me for making assumptions..well, defend your side of it.  What am I assuming that’s wrong?  How are they trying to win in 2021?

[Moose Milligan]

2 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Ok but your arguments are all over the place. 
 

Mmmmm, ok.  

Quote

You said they don’t have a pile of money but yet they proved they could have a high payroll.  That isn’t something that is disputable.  They clearly can spend more than they are now.

I believe I said:

1 hour ago, Moose Milligan said:

I'll also tack on that I don't believe that this franchise is sitting upon giant sums of money and is refusing to spend it.  I think they can spend more than they already are, for sure.  But how much more?   None of us really know and it's obnoxious to assume that it's WAAAAAY more just to fit a narrative because bashing ownership is a dead horse that we all love to beat.

Nowhere did I say they don't have a pile of money.   We agree that they had a high payroll at one time.  But they haven't been winning for years, attendance has been decreasing and for 2018 and 2019, it has been awful.  If you're suggesting - that despite declining attendance numbers and a pandemic that but a significant hinderance on what they could make this year  - that this team can still have a high payroll, we just flat out disagree there.

They clearly can spend more than they are now.  I will agree that they can spend more than they are now.  How much that is specifically is up for debate.  And neither of us really know for certain. 

Quote

They are choosing not to because of “rebuilding” but that’s bs at this point.  

 

Ok, if you say so.

[Can_of_corn]

I will agree with SG that, right now, it doesn't appear that they are trying to compete in 2021. 

[Moose Milligan]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

I will agree with SG that, right now, it doesn't appear that they are trying to compete in 2021. 

I'll agree with you but not SG because you're slightly more palatable.  

[Sports Guy]

1 minute ago, Moose Milligan said:

Mmmmm, ok.  

I believe I said:

Nowhere did I say they don't have a pile of money.   We agree that they had a high payroll at one time.  But they haven't been winning for years, attendance has been decreasing and for 2018 and 2019, it has been awful.  If you're suggesting - that despite declining attendance numbers and a pandemic that but a significant hinderance on what they could make this year  - that this team can still have a high payroll, we just flat out disagree there.

They clearly can spend more than they are now.  I will agree that they can spend more than they are now.  How much that is specifically is up for debate.  And neither of us really know for certain. 

Ok, if you say so.

You said, I don’t believe they are sitting on giant sums of money.  That’s not the same as a pile of money? Ummm, ok.  
 

And thank you for admitting they can spend more.  That is and was my point.  You are presuming I’m not talking about a ton more.  I stated 80-100M.  I don’t need to see the books to know they can spend that.  We have seen what TV and radio contracts bring them, MASN, etc...they can spend that but they aren’t.  Why?  Because of rebuilding.  That’s why.  It’s not because they can’t, it’s because they choose not to.

 

[Sports Guy]

In 2011, the Os were 11th in the AL in attendance.  They drew 1.7M fans (in 2018, they drew 1.3) The following year, the payroll was about 85M.  
 

The Orioles are both worth a lot more money now than they were then and have made a lot of money between then and now.  
 

TV contracts are more, etc...so yes, I think asking them to spend in the same area in 2021 as they were in 2012 isn’t unreasonable at all.

And btw, attendance is only a portion of what revenue is for the team.  The National and local TV and radio deals are generate the most revenue.

[owknows]

9 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

 

You are saying I’m assuming they aren’t trying to win in 2021.

I'm not saying anything about your assumptions.

YOU SAID....  Repeatedly...  "They are not trying to win".

I didn't mention a year... nor do I think it relevant.

Is this what I can expect of any future exchanges?

Perpetual hair-splitting and ambiguity?

Because it grows tiresome quickly.

[Sports Guy]

Just now, owknows said:

I'm not saying anything about your assumptions.

YOU SAID....  Repeatedly...  "They are not trying to win".

I didn't mention a year... nor do I think it relevant.

Is this what I can expect of any future exchanges?

Perpetual hair-splitting and ambiguity?

Because it grows tiresome quickly.

Yea, when you represent my opinions wrong, I will dispute that.  Just don’t do that and we will be fine.

And I mentioned a year.  I never said that aren’t trying to win long term.  I said they aren’t trying to win right now and you said I should assume that and act like I know what they are thinking.

So, since that is your stance..show me how they are trying to win in 2021.

[owknows]

Just now, Sports Guy said:

Yea, when you represent my opinions wrong, I will dispute that.  Just don’t do that and we will be fine.

And I mentioned a year.  I never said that aren’t trying to win long term.  I said they aren’t trying to win right now and you said I should assume that and act like I know what they are thinking.

So, since that is your stance..show me how they are trying to win in 2021.

LOL

Thanks for the discussion.

Have a nice day.

[Sports Guy]

1 minute ago, owknows said:

LOL

Thanks for the discussion.

Have a nice day.

LOL is right.

You get on your high horse and the can’t even defend your position.  
 

Nothing I just said in that post is false.

But yea, no need to Continue this if you are just going to dodge the actual discussion. 

[Sports Guy]

51 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

But they didn't keep winning and didn't build it the right way.   We can quibble as to what happened there but the issue is that they didn't.

I should have been clear in my previous post, even when they were winning, attendance was middle of the pack.  It was never at the top, so it's not like attendance was ever amazing.  

Again, let's find a team that has a high payroll that is perpetually in the middle of the pack to the bottom half of attendance for years on end.  

And btw, to prove the point further...as you state here, attendance was never amazing.  The presence of the Nats probably means the attendance will never be amazing again (I’m defining that as 3M+).

And despite that, they had payrolls ranging from 107-165M for 5 years.

Where they screwed up, imo, was that they didn’t start rebuilding sooner.  They should already be back to contention had they started this process when they should have as opposed to when they did.

That being said, they proved that you don’t need to have crazy high attendance to spend money and I’m not even asking foe them to spend close to the what they were spending in most of those years.