Define "Ace"

[Bahama O's Fan]

This is piggybacking on a discussion on Means. Firstly, what is your definition of an "ace" pitcher. Second, does anyone know the origin of it in baseball? Who first used it? What were they meaning? Maybe if we can find that out, it would settle the argument of how it should be used today. Any baseball historians here know the answer?

[Oriole1940]

I answered it in detail in the John Means thread.  I refer you to that.

[ChosenOne21]

I define "ace" as a starting pitcher who consistently maintains a sub-3.00 ERA, or roughly the top 5-10 pitchers in the league.

I define "starting pitcher" as someone who can get through 5+ innings on a regular basis without totally imploding. The below definitions assume the previous statement

#1 starter: 80th percentile starting pitcher ERA

#2 starter: 60th percentile ERA

#3 starter: 40th percentile ERA

#4 starter: 20th percentile ERA

#5 starter: the rest

[wildcard]

44 minutes ago, Bahama O's Fan said:

This is piggybacking on a discussion on Means. Firstly, what is your definition of an "ace" pitcher. Second, does anyone know the origin of it in baseball? Who first used it? What were they meaning? Maybe if we can find that out, it would settle the argument of how it should be used today. Any baseball historians here know the answer?

Don't know for sure  but I always thought that the term Ace was coined by a card player.  Of course that would make the #3 guy a Queen and the #4 guy a Joker.

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

1 minute ago, wildcard said:

Don't know for sure  but I always thought that the term Ace was coined by a card player.  Of course that would make the #3 guy a Queen and the #4 guy a Joker.

I had to Google it and I would have never guessed this was the origin of the term. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ace_(baseball)

Quote

In baseball, an aceis the best starting pitcheron a team and nearly always the first pitcher in the team's starting rotation. Barring injury or exceptional circumstances, an ace typically starts on Opening Day. In addition, aces are usually preferred to start crucial playoffgames, sometimes on three days' rest.^[1]

The term may be a derivation of the nickname of Asa Brainard(real first name: "Asahel"), a 19th-century star pitcher, who was sometimes referred to as "Ace".

 

[Frobby]

Interesting history lesson there, thanks for that.  

My definition is someone who over a period of several years is one of the top 10-15 pitchers in MLB.   You can pitch “like an ace” for a single season, but you’re not an ace unless you are able to do it multiple times.   

Mike Mussina certainly was an ace by my definition.   Erik Bedard had a couple of ace-like seasons, but he wouldn’t get the ace tag from me because he wasn’t durable enough to maintain it.   

 

[Moose Milligan]

I agree, top 10 pitchers in the game.  Someone that can throw a gem nearly every time out.  

[Sports Guy]

I think the key is not only are you a top 10 guy for multiple seasons but it’s also the IP.  You have to be going 200+ innings.

You can be a sub 3 ERA guy but if you are only going 180 innings, You aren’t an ace.

Aces mean you don’t use your pen as much.  Get you those 20ish outs every time they take the ball.  
 

Getting 15-18 outs isn’t an ace.

[Frobby]

Active pitchers who to me are or were aces:

Verlander, Greinke, Kershaw, Scherzer, Sale, Price, deGrom, Wainwright, Kluber, Bumgardner, Strasburg, Cole, Darvish, Arrieta.

Guys who I consider borderline: Lester, Cueto,

Guys who might get there: Bauer, Bieber.  (There are other less established guys but these two have had a few excellent seasons already.)

[foxfield]

27 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Interesting history lesson there, thanks for that.  

My definition is someone who over a period of several years is one of the top 10-15 pitchers in MLB.   You can pitch “like an ace” for a single season, but you’re not an ace unless you are able to do it multiple times.   

Mike Mussina certainly was an ace by my definition.   Erik Bedard had a couple of ace-like seasons, but he wouldn’t get the ace tag from me because he wasn’t durable enough to maintain it.   

 

I think this is slightly unfair to Bedard.  I think his ace-like seasons made him an ace and his durability destroyed that value.  It did not keep him from attaining it and it certainly was the price that was charged to Seattle in the trade.  His durability kept him from making that a good deal for Seattle, but they were definitely trying to acquire an ace.  IMHO

[Moose Milligan]

21 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Active pitchers who to me are or were aces:

Verlander, Greinke, Kershaw, Scherzer, Sale, Price, deGrom, Wainwright, Kluber, Bumgardner, Strasburg, Cole, Darvish, Arrieta.

Guys who I consider borderline: Lester, Cueto,

Guys who might get there: Bauer, Bieber.  (There are other less established guys but these two have had a few excellent seasons already.)

Strasburg has ace level stuff and can be amazing when he's on the mound and was fantastic in their 2019 WS run...but he's just not durable enough.  The rest of the guys mentioned are or have been durable.   IMO, he's the one in that list that's unlike the others.  

[Bahama O's Fan]

47 minutes ago, OsFanSinceThe80s said:

I had to Google it and I would have never guessed this was the origin of the term. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ace_(baseball)

 

So historically, it just simply meant the best starting pitcher on your team. I guess we have just tried to refine it, but technically, there are 32 aces out there. If we go with the historical definition, one of Randy Johnson and Curt Shilling was an ace on that Diamondbacks team and one wasn't. Very interesting. 

[Aristotelian]

6 minutes ago, Bahama O's Fan said:

So historically, it just simply meant the best starting pitcher on your team. I guess we have just tried to refine it, but technically, there are 32 aces out there. If we go with the historical definition, one of Randy Johnson and Curt Shilling was an ace on that Diamondbacks team and one wasn't. Very interesting. 

I do think Ace implies the best starter on the team, but I see that as a necessary but not sufficient criteria. (And Big Unit was definitely the ace that year! Four straight years leading league in K's, ERA+, and Cy Young. If they pitched head to head you would certainly expect RJ to win that matchup). 

[Bahama O's Fan]

Just now, Aristotelian said:

I do think Ace implies the best starter on the team, but I see that as a necessary but not sufficient criteria. (And Big Unit was definitely the ace that year! Four straight years leading league in K's, ERA+, and Cy Young. If they pitched head to head you would certainly expect RJ to win that matchup). 

One of the best World Series I have ever watched. I was only 5 in '83 and just learning about baseball. 

[Aristotelian]

5 minutes ago, Bahama O's Fan said:

One of the best World Series I have ever watched. I was only 5 in '83 and just learning about baseball. 

Especially because the Yankees didn't win!