Do these comments on the Tigers’ rebuild attempt apply to the Orioles?

[HowAboutThat]

28 minutes ago, SteveA said:

He isn't worried about improving the on the field product this year.   So what?   He has filled the SS hole with Iglesias, then with Galvis, and both have performed.

He tried with Franco, and it hasn't worked so far.   So what.   Who would he have realistically picked up for 3B this year that would still be there when we can contend?    

I agree with some of the criticisms:   we are keeping some guys in the minors too long.   We may not spend on payroll even when it is appropriate.  

But I honestly don't care that he is using filler guys at positions where we don't have prospects ready.   And you and you haven't been able to give one example of someone we should have gotten to help and didn't.

As I said in my previous comment, I can’t think of anybody off the top of my head, because I haven’t researched it. Although now that you have put it to me, I will. But it is the responsibility of Mike to know. And I refuse to believe these are the best guys he could get. It’s just not possible, And that contention is born out by the fact that the guys he has gotten have been cheap and “cheap” Was the desire, and Good was secondary.

I am glad he did not keep Alberto, and I am glad he traded Villar, and non-tendered Nunez. But it was expected that he would get somebody superior to replace them

[Camden_yardbird]

1 hour ago, ArtVanDelay said:

Mize sucks though. 
 

Not that he can’t improve, but I don’t see any reason to think he’ll ever be more than a mediocre starter. 
 

https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/savant-player/casey-mize-663554?stats=statcast-r-pitching-mlb

Ha, you are going to show me the statistics of a 24 year old who has less than 60 innings in the major leagues and tell me he sucks.  Of course he sucks.

Mize would hardly be the first rd 1 pick 1 SP to fail if he did, that said he has less than 200 professional innings.  He has three plus pitches and his work at age 22 was quite good, low FIP, low walk rate, k% over 20%.  He probably won't become Cole but I wouldn't call him a bust. Far from it.

[Camden_yardbird]

54 minutes ago, owknows said:

I suspect you may ask 10 different people and get 10 different opinions.

There is no consensus "we".

I'm a fan of the Tampa Bay sustainability model. I think we've spent enough time in the desert, to enjoy a few sips from the canteen. Chugging down a bunch of free agents is what led us into the desert to begin with.

If it were mine to do, I'd look for a middle tier 3B... and stick Valaika at 2B for the duration. Otherwise, I'm standing pat and waiting for the finer wines in the basement to mature.

I dont think you understand the Tampa model then.

Tampa takes chances on free agents all the time and they do it for a variety of reasons.  Sometime they sign low risk high reward injured players (Ramos, Eovaldi)  sometime its players to round out a team (Zuniga and Morton) sometimes they try find a diamond that isn't polished (Gomez).  Since 2015 thry have signed 30 free agents.  Tampa churns, and they do so to see what works, but they don't preclude themselves from any avenue of acquiring talent wherever they are in their competitive process.

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Camden_yardbird said:

I dont think you understand the Tampa model then.

Tampa takes chances on free agents all the time and they do it for a variety of reasons.  Sometime they sign low risk high reward injured players (Ramos, Eovaldi)  sometime its players to round out a team (Zuniga and Morton) sometimes they try find a diamond that isn't polished (Gomez).  Since 2015 thry have signed 30 free agents.  Tampa churns, and they do so to see what works, but they don't preclude themselves from any avenue of acquiring talent wherever they are in their competitive process.

Sometimes they even do it because they have payroll to burn (Balfour).

[owknows]

1 hour ago, Camden_yardbird said:

I dont think you understand the Tampa model then.

Tampa takes chances on free agents all the time and they do it for a variety of reasons.  Sometime they sign low risk high reward injured players (Ramos, Eovaldi)  sometime its players to round out a team (Zuniga and Morton) sometimes they try find a diamond that isn't polished (Gomez).  Since 2015 thry have signed 30 free agents.  Tampa churns, and they do so to see what works, but they don't preclude themselves from any avenue of acquiring talent wherever they are in their competitive process.

LOL

SInce 2015 the Baltimore Orioles have signed 90 free agents. (yes 90)

[Camden_yardbird]

27 minutes ago, owknows said:

LOL

SInce 2015 the Baltimore Orioles have signed 90 free agents. (yes 90)

Really?  Because according to sportrac that number is 34.

https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/transactions/baltimore-orioles/signed-free-agent/

[owknows]

3 minutes ago, Camden_yardbird said:

Really?  Because according to sportrac that number is 34.

https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/transactions/baltimore-orioles/signed-free-agent/

If you got to THIS link

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/MLB/2020-free-agents.shtml

Sort the list by TO team

Then count the number of Baltimore Oriole FA signings for each year going back to 2015... then number is 90

 

But even taking your number of 34 as true... it's still more than the 30 you held up for Tampa Bay as what we should be aspiring to.

Funny that

[bpilktree]

This is the second year of the rebuild as far as I care.  I know that we played a shirt season of major league ball but their was no minor league season to evaluate most of our younger guys.  There was no scouting of players on other teams that we might have traded for,  There was little no any season for players to draft out of college or high school.  Then international scouting was about none for a large chunk as travel was not allowed.  We did get to see some of the upper level guys in their expanded roster camp but that is just simulation and you see the same guys over and over.  This off season and trade deadline will give us a good idea what Elias actually thinks the timeline is by how he handles Mancini, Santander, and even Means.  It will also give him a season of the minor leagues for some of the guys we have added last year.  

[Three Run Homer]

I see nothing wrong with focusing on prospects as the way to rebuild a small or mid-market club.  The last time the O's had to rebuild, they kept signing guys like Albert Belle and Miguel Tejada trying to compete, but they didn't have enough young cost-controlled talent to support their stars, and they wound up with 13 straight losing seasons.  Unless you are a big market team like the Dodgers or Yankees, you can't spend enough on free agents to compete without having a core of talented homegrown players.  So it makes sense to build up the farm system first and wait until your young core is competitive to add free agents to put you over the top.  

[GuidoSarducci]

6 hours ago, Philip said:

I am glad he did not keep Alberto, and I am glad he traded Villar, and non-tendered Nunez. But it was expected that he would get somebody superior to replace them

No, it wasn’t.  On a non contending team you are either signing fillers or having your young guys play.  Neither of which needs to be upgrades of players traded or lost to FA

[eddie83]

On 5/15/2021 at 12:13 PM, Camden_yardbird said:

God.  I have been screaming this in my criticism of Elias and people have just told me I am crazy.

Not just prospects, but Elias assumed nothing was here sold what he had for pennies on the dollar for single A prospects who are mile away.

Not to mention they are trying to do this in the single worst time to do it for the development of prospects in the history of baseball history, if unforeseen.

You are never going to rebuild solely from prospects.  You have to spend money, you have to sign guys to short deals and see if they can be pieces.  This is a lot easier for big market teams, and that sucks, Manfred is doing his best to ruin this game.  But there's no reason you can't take chances on $10 million / 1 year deals or even $15/ 2 year deals (unless ownership is a problem)  The Yankees got an MVP candidate out of it.

The players can say no to bad teams. There is not a plethora of talent like you describe on the market. Why would DJ sign with a non contender when the Yanks want him ?

[eddie83]

If the young talent doesn’t produce then what does the rest matter?  
 

Tampa wins because of their brains not their wallets.  
 

If the Tigers will be good in a couple of years it’s not because of the placeholders they have now not producing. If those placeholders were producing they wouldn’t help win in 2/3 years unless they are flipped for talent. 

[Moose Milligan]

I sorta see where the OP is coming from and how it relates to the Orioles.  

But unless you're the Sox/Yankees/Dodgers, you really can't spend your way to the top.  You've gotta be able to scout, draft, sign and develop young talent.  And even a team like the Dodgers does a fantastic job at doing that and then spending a lot to keep their talent.  IIRC, most of the Dodgers top stars are home grown guys...or guys acquired on the cheap and then have turned into stars seemingly overnight like Turner and Muncy.

I don't think the Tigers can field a good team without guys like Mize, Manning and Tork producing.  I don't think the Orioles can field a good team without guys like AR, RMC, Hall, Rodriguez, Hays, Henderson, etc producing, either.  

As to when a team should spend?  Who knows.  It's hard to say, so many things have to go right and so much luck is involved in getting your guys to develop and play well.  The Tigers have some awesome prospects, no one can deny that.  MLB.com has them ranked #2 overall headed into this season.

This board has a collective boner for minor league system rankings, especially when ours is somewhere in the top 10.  It's odd to me that someone would look at the Tigers crop of talent and say they're doing something wrong when looking at it from that perspective.   

That said, I wouldn't have minded if we'd have spent more this past offseason and I'd hope we're able to open the purse strings a little bit this coming offseason.  But per usual, I don't see that happening.

[Frobby]

3 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

As to when a team should spend?  Who knows.  It's hard to say, so many things have to go right and so much luck is involved in getting your guys to develop and play well.  The Tigers have some awesome prospects, no one can deny that.  MLB.com has them ranked #2 overall headed into this season.

This board has a collective boner for minor league system rankings, especially when ours is somewhere in the top 10.  It's odd to me that someone would look at the Tigers crop of talent and say they're doing something wrong when looking at it from that perspective.   

That said, I wouldn't have minded if we'd have spent more this past offseason and I'd hope we're able to open the purse strings a little bit this coming offseason.  But per usual, I don't see that happening.

Good point about the Tigers’ system.   Fangraphs values it at $360 mm.   Lot of assets there that could gel.   

[sportsfan8703]

Our terrible returns for Machado, Britton, Gausman, Bundy, etc..., is what is really delaying us. So far all we have to show for it is Dillon Tate and Bruce Zimmerman. Very disappointing.