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More second guessing Hyde: Pitching


Philip

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There are already two extremely long posts about second-guessing Hyde.

The general feeling is either that 1)he is handicapped because he has no control over his roster and little control over how he plays them and the players he has are terrible so he gets a pass, or at least an incomplete, and 2) he has no idea how to manage and continually makes mistakes that a better qualified manager would not make, even given the restrictions he has and the personnel he is dealing with.

Today’s complaint is pitching. He has no idea how do use his pitching.

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Alright, I'll bite.  

It's been two hours since you made this post, no one's replied, which is a rarity for this board.  I'm assuming that's because you've brought these points up ad nauseam in the other threads and for some reason felt the need to make a third thread about it that brings nothing new to the table.

So, again, I'll address your points that you, once again, brought up in your OP.  Because no one here hasn't done that before.

1:  We don't know what control he has over the roster.  We like to think we do, but we really don't.  I'd prefer to think he has some "input" and not "control" over the roster as he works in tandem to some degree with Elias.  The GM/Manager relationship symbiotic in nature and that's boring for sports message boards where people like to place blame squarely on the shoulders of one party or another.  

Yes, the players he has are terrible.  That cannot be refuted.

2.  Again, you keep making claims that he has no idea how to manage but don't bring specific examples to the table and give irrefutable proof that a different move would have changed the outcome of the game.  Especially when taking into consideration that he has terrible players to begin with.  

You cannot pretend that he has significantly better pieces that he's declining to bring into the game.  You cannot pretend that he's leaving better and obvious options on the table.  

Read those two sentences.  And then read them again.  Slowly.

You're also completely ignoring that Elias is an advanced metrics geek and wouldn't hire someone who doesn't believe in lineup optimization, matchups, etc.  You're completely ignoring that Hyde has all of the stats available at his disposal to make moves.  He's not firing from the hip, he's not managing from his gut and he's not making this up as he goes along.  

Do you think Mike Elias, someone who's involved with analytics to the degree that he is, someone who went to TJ and Yale would hire someone who doesn't play percentages?  Hell, do you think ANY GM right now would hire someone who doesn't understand analytics and advanced stats?  

Do you not take into account when Hyde talks about who's not available in the bullpen tonight because they worked last night?  Or do you think these guys are available for all 162?

Do you think every string Hyde pulls should magically work somehow?

How can you say he has no idea how to use his pitching when half the staff wouldn't be good enough to crack the staffs for top teams in the league?  Who in our rotation, outside of Means, would make the Rays rotation?  Who in our bullpen outside of Fry, would make the Rays bullpen?

What, specifically, are you expecting here?

 

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10 hours ago, Philip said:

There are already two extremely long posts about second-guessing Hyde.

The general feeling is either that 1)he is handicapped because he has no control over his roster and little control over how he plays them and the players he has are terrible so he gets a pass, or at least an incomplete, and 2) he has no idea how to manage and continually makes mistakes that a better qualified manager would not make, even given the restrictions he has and the personnel he is dealing with.

Today’s complaint is pitching. He has no idea how do use his pitching.

Wrong again 

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8 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

Alright, I'll bite.  

It's been two hours since you made this post, no one's replied, which is a rarity for this board.  I'm assuming that's because you've brought these points up ad nauseam in the other threads and for some reason felt the need to make a third thread about it that brings nothing new to the table.

So, again, I'll address your points that you, once again, brought up in your OP.  Because no one here hasn't done that before.

1:  We don't know what control he has over the roster.  We like to think we do, but we really don't.  I'd prefer to think he has some "input" and not "control" over the roster as he works in tandem to some degree with Elias.  The GM/Manager relationship symbiotic in nature and that's boring for sports message boards where people like to place blame squarely on the shoulders of one party or another.  

Yes, the players he has are terrible.  That cannot be refuted.

2.  Again, you keep making claims that he has no idea how to manage but don't bring specific examples to the table and give irrefutable proof that a different move would have changed the outcome of the game.  Especially when taking into consideration that he has terrible players to begin with.  

You cannot pretend that he has significantly better pieces that he's declining to bring into the game.  You cannot pretend that he's leaving better and obvious options on the table.  

Read those two sentences.  And then read them again.  Slowly.

You're also completely ignoring that Elias is an advanced metrics geek and wouldn't hire someone who doesn't believe in lineup optimization, matchups, etc.  You're completely ignoring that Hyde has all of the stats available at his disposal to make moves.  He's not firing from the hip, he's not managing from his gut and he's not making this up as he goes along.  

Do you think Mike Elias, someone who's involved with analytics to the degree that he is, someone who went to TJ and Yale would hire someone who doesn't play percentages?  Hell, do you think ANY GM right now would hire someone who doesn't understand analytics and advanced stats?  

Do you not take into account when Hyde talks about who's not available in the bullpen tonight because they worked last night?  Or do you think these guys are available for all 162?

Do you think every string Hyde pulls should magically work somehow?

How can you say he has no idea how to use his pitching when half the staff wouldn't be good enough to crack the staffs for top teams in the league?  Who in our rotation, outside of Means, would make the Rays rotation?  Who in our bullpen outside of Fry, would make the Rays bullpen?

What, specifically, are you expecting here?

 

Moose you need to reread what I wrote. I understand and he has no control over the guys he has, but he has control over how he uses them, and uses them badly.

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15 minutes ago, Philip said:

Moose you need to reread what I wrote. I understand and he has no control over the guys he has, but he has control over how he uses them, and uses them badly.

No he doesn’t…it’s a silly and baseless claim.  And every single manager makes questionable decisions.

This is a tired and awful argument.

Every team message board always some thread about how it’s the managers fault when a lead is blown in the 9th.  It’s so dumb.

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5 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

No he doesn’t…it’s a silly and baseless claim.  And every single manager makes questionable decisions.

This is a tired and awful argument.

Every manager occasionally makes a bad decision, that’s because people are human and humans make mistakes. He consistently does the same wrong thing, and I call him out on it.
santander could have won the game if he’d made that makable catch, but that doesn’t change that the pitching use was inexplicable.

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24 minutes ago, Philip said:

Every manager occasionally makes a bad decision, that’s because people are human and humans make mistakes. He consistently does the same wrong thing, and I call him out on it.
santander could have won the game if he’d made that makable catch, but that doesn’t change that the pitching use was inexplicable.

YOU calling him out on something you don’t know anything about doesn’t make him wrong..it just makes you a broken record.

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20 minutes ago, Philip said:

Every manager occasionally makes a bad decision, that’s because people are human and humans make mistakes. He consistently does the same wrong thing, and I call him out on it.
santander could have won the game if he’d made that makable catch, but that doesn’t change that the pitching use was inexplicable.

What would you have done differently?  Who would you have brought in, and when?

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12 minutes ago, SteveA said:

What would you have done differently?  Who would you have brought in, and when?

Exactly this. What is the alternate more appropriate detail laden version of "What Hyde should done" for yesterday's game?

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24 minutes ago, SteveA said:

What would you have done differently?  Who would you have brought in, and when?

Fair question:

On Friday, Wells Scott, Fry and Harvey all threw between 14-20 pitches. 

On Thursday Tate threw 32 pitches and Sceroler 29 so even with a days rest you want to avoid them if possible. Plutko threw 44 pitches on Tuesday and he’s not very good. But Sulser only threw 12 pitches on Thursday and Hyde had him warming on Saturday so he was obviously able to come in.

So why choose Fry over Sulser, who’d had a day off and only threw 12 pitches the previous day? And when you pull Fry, why bring in Wells, who threw 19 pitches the day before, when Sulser was already warmed and ready? 
 

 

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·
14h
 
Awful loss. Hyde's awful bullpen management watched his team blow a 7-1 lead. I wonder if any major league manager has ever used the same four relievers in an afternoon game after a night game ever? I'd be shocked if this has ever occurred. #Orioles
 
 
 
 
TbRAbEaw_x96.jpg
 
The Blue Jays scored 8 runs in three innings off Hyde's back to back game relievers. They all deserved better. Where was Tate? Sulser? Valdez?
 
 
 
 
TbRAbEaw_x96.jpg
 
This loss goes right on Brandon Hyde. Uses 4 relievers on back to back games with an afternoon game after a night game? Awful bullpen management. Who does this? #Orioles
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None of those guys pitched that many pitches.  These guys can easily handle back to back days.  If they can’t, cut them.  Either way, it’s crazy to put it on Hyde’s shoulders.  
 

And he wants to see what Wells can do in high leverage situations.  I like using him there to see how good he can be.  He has been excellent for a while now.

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