Mora has minor shoulder surgery; Roberts & Markakis talks slow

[LookinUp]

I think its pretty obvious that both sides are. Each side wants something slightly different here, so they'll take some time, since it isn't a very time-sensitive issue, and reach a consensus.

It's not obvious to SG. He just thinks AM is a lazy idiot who's incapable of directing the team when he doesn't make moves on SG's schedule.

You are being reasonable. SG is not.

[Mackus]

Fine..Then you choose to ignore what he has said publicly...I don't. Great, glad to hear it.

I guess I'm just not gullible enough to believe that everything a public figure says publicly is always exactly what they are actually thinking.

[Sports Guy]

Actually, I articulated one scenario on post #60. It's a scenario where both sides are jockeying for what they want in the contract. If I were Nick, this is exactly what I'd want my agent doing for me. If I were the O's, this is exactly what I'd want to do. The only question is at what point does jockeying for position materially hurt the relationship.

This is a business. Both sides need to act like businessmen here.

The negotiations have been on going...This is an extremely easy process.

We aren't bidding against anyone...We don't have any outside bs going on.

This boils down to one thing...How long does Markakis want to extend for...By now, we should know this UNLESS Nick has said, i will let you know when i see what you are doing in FA....And i am not sure this is the case because they have apparently been talking since the season ended anyway.

I think this is all about MacPhail taking his sweet time...Nothing more, nothing less.

[Sports Guy]

I guess I'm just not gullible enough to believe that everything a public figure says publicly is always exactly what they are actually thinking.

Yea you are right...Markakis is lying...He is saying PUBLICLY that he wants to re-sign here(several times) and has engaged in negotiations...He also married this offseason and bought a house in the area.

But yea, none of that is a sign he wants to extend here.

No, I like the theory that Nick is a liar and doesn't want to be here...That makes much more sense.

[LookinUp]

The negotiations have been on going...This is an extremely easy process.

We aren't bidding against anyone...We don't have any outside bs going on.

This boils down to one thing...How long does Markakis want to extend for...By now, we should know this UNLESS Nick has said, i will let you know when i see what you are doing in FA....And i am not sure this is the case because they have apparently been talking since the season ended anyway.

I think this is all about MacPhail taking his sweet time...Nothing more, nothing less.

On the first bolded part - that's exactly my point. We shouldn't be jumping to conclusions and saying this organization is in the wrong hands until we are sure. Are you pointing out something worth watching? Yes. I agree with that. Are you showing definitively that AM can't get the job done? Absolutely no.

On the second bolded part - fair enough. You're on the record. I respect that.

[LookinUp]

Yea you are right...Markakis is lying...He is saying PUBLICLY that he wants to re-sign here(several times) and has engaged in negotiations...He also married this offseason and bought a house in the area.

But yea, none of that is a sign he wants to extend here.

No, I like the theory that Nick is a liar and doesn't want to be here...That makes much more sense.

I think you're missing the point here, not us. Mackus is indicating (I think) that just because someone wants to sign a new deal with guaranteed money doesn't mean that he wants to do so for terms that are acceptable to the Orioles.

Now, you've indicated that you'd give Markakis a 4-year deal. I'm guessing the Orioles would not. This is one scenario where a long negotiation makes a lot of sense. Kakes may (reasonably) want a new deal w/ guaranteed money but w/o the longer term committment that we're asking for.

Negotiators need to figure this out.

[nadecir]

No offense to either of you - and I do consider you both smart posters - but I can't believe that you'd both just cave in on such a major issue. The point of negotiations is to achieve a mutually acceptable agreement. In almost every single negotiation, that results in each side extracting more out of your counter part than was originally offered.

Markakis has a fair amount of leverage in this situation. If the Orioles don't do anything, Markakis in 3 years now gets to pick his team he wants to play for, and sign a HUGE deal to boot. Even if Markakis doesn't sign a deal now, he will be a millionaire after he goes to arbitration next February. Talks with Markakis have been going on at least since mid-season now, and we are guessing Markakis is adamant about only signing for four years. Why do you think he is going to change his mind now, especially since he is very close to a guaranteed, multi-million dollar contract in 2009 through arbitration?

If Markakis says he is not going to sign for more than four years no matter what you do, you get the signature for four years now. There's no reason you can't get another extension in the next four years if he is interested.

The Orioles have wasted a golden opportunity to get Markakis signed to a long term contract earlier in his career. It has cost the Orioles a lot of money to wait him out so far. Why do you think waiting is going to work out now?

Waiting until Markakis sees big free agent deals signed this offseason, and waitin as he gets closer to free agency by the day is not in the Orioles best interest. Markakis' agent has said that it gets much more enticing for the player to go the free agent route as he gets closer and closer to free agency. There is really no reason at all why Markakis would have to compromise on his position on the length of an extension.

Let me ask you this. If Markakis and his agent say, "No way Nick is signing a deal that commits him to more than four years with the Orioles. Instead of a longer term deal, Nick will take his twenty million dollars or so in arbitration over the next three years, and then declare free agency after that. Nick will sign a four year deal this offseason, but after this offseason, Nick will just wait for free agency rather than sign any extension." Would you sign him for four years right now? Or would you risk not signing any deal at all and seeing him leave in three years?

[ChaosLex]

[Sports Guy]

On the first bolded part - that's exactly my point. We shouldn't be jumping to conclusions and saying this organization is in the wrong hands until we are sure. Are you pointing out something worth watching? Yes. I agree with that. Are you showing definitively that AM can't get the job done? Absolutely no.

On the second bolded part - fair enough. You're on the record. I respect that.

You are willing to give AM the benefit of the doubt...I'm not..His track record says he moves slowly and takes a lot of time to get things done...That can't really be disputed.

I totally agree that Nick may not want as many years as AM wants to give...This isn't something I disagree with. But AM should know this by now and when he knows this, there is no reason for this stuff to drag out that long.

It is beyond absurd that it wasn't done months ago or even last year.

Again, the only valid reason for this not to be done is that Nick has said, I am waiting to see what we do in FA before I decide. Personally, i don't buy that theory but it is the only possible valid reason.

[AnythingO's]

Well, no one has come up with one yet.

Actually, you did in a prior post:

"The ONLY worthwhile excuse to this not being done now is that Markakis has told AM that he won't know how many years he wants to extend for until he sees what we do in FA this offseason."

I am not trying to be smart, you are absolutely right - the parameters of the bookend contracts ( 4yrs vs 6-7 yrs) could and should be done. The trouble is that even if they were done we wouldn't hear anything about it from either side. Nick probably wants to see just what we do about SP, SS, and Roberts before he decides how many FA years he is willing to give up and that won't be known for some weeks. There could be some give on both sides and they meet in the middle or maybe have options for years 5 or 6. IMO "soon" relative to Nick's extension is sometime in the next 2 months.

[odogs101]

Didn't Loewen say he would sign a minor league deal with us? Wait, he changed his mind and signed with Toronto.

[Sports Guy]

Actually' date=' you did in a prior post:

"The ONLY worthwhile excuse to this not being done now is that Markakis has told AM that he won't know how many years he wants to extend for until he sees what we do in FA this offseason."

I am not trying to be smart, you are absolutely right - the parameters of the bookend contracts ( 4yrs vs 6-7 yrs) could and should be done. The trouble is that even if they were done we wouldn't hear anything about it from either side. Nick probably wants to see just what we do about SP, SS, and Roberts before he decides how many FA years he is willing to give up and that won't be known for some weeks. There could be some give on both sides and they meet in the middle or maybe have options for years 5 or 6. IMO "soon" relative to Nick's extension is sometime in the next 2 months.[/quote']

My thing is, I don't buy that as an excuse though.

He has been talking to us for months now and has been talking to us since the offseason started...ie before FA even starts.

So, why engage in this negotiations if you don't even know what you want yet? Its just not that logical to me.

[wickedwitch]

Negotiations can take time. And if a few extra weeks of negotiation gets us Markakis for an extra year, it's easily worth it. So yes, they could probably get four years done today. But if we do that, Markakis will have less of incentive to sign a five year contract tomorrow.

As long as it's done before the arbitration hearings start, it's okay.

[LookinUp]

Markakis has a fair amount of leverage in this situation. If the Orioles don't do anything, Markakis in 3 years now gets to pick his team he wants to play for, and sign a HUGE deal to boot. Even if Markakis doesn't sign a deal now, he will be a millionaire after he goes to arbitration next February. Talks with Markakis have been going on at least since mid-season now, and we are guessing Markakis is adamant about only signing for four years. Why do you think he is going to change his mind now, especially since he is very close to a guaranteed, multi-million dollar contract in 2009 through arbitration?

Just because talks were initiated 4 months ago doesn't mean they've been going on for 4 months. However, to answer your question, I have no idea if he'd change his mind and you have no idea if he wouldn't. Good negotiators consider the entire landscape and decide what to do. If he only wants 4 years, maybe it's in the Orioles' best interests to trade him. My point is that Kakes isn't the only one dictating these negotiations.

If Markakis says he is not going to sign for more than four years no matter what you do, you get the signature for four years now. There's no reason you can't get another extension in the next four years if he is interested.

Only if you've determined that you can't extract more out of him AND it's in our best interests to only have him for four years.

The Orioles have wasted a golden opportunity to get Markakis signed to a long term contract earlier in his career. It has cost the Orioles a lot of money to wait him out so far. Why do you think waiting is going to work out now?

I agree with this. If I were AM I'd have already started negotiations with Jones. However, this appears to be an ownership issue.

The previous waiting was not as part of a negotiation. It was a simple determination by the owner that the risk of higher salary assumed by waiting another 1-2 years to extend is less then the risk of extending early at a cheaper price and either seeing the player not meet expectations or get injured.

Waiting until Markakis sees big free agent deals signed this offseason, and waitin as he gets closer to free agency by the day is not in the Orioles best interest. Markakis' agent has said that it gets much more enticing for the player to go the free agent route as he gets closer and closer to free agency. There is really no reason at all why Markakis would have to compromise on his position on the length of an extension.

I doubt other FA deals will materially effect what Kakes expects. Indeed, aside from the Yankees, it's probably likely that the economy adversely effects the deals some FA's get this offseason. Only time will tell.

Kakes will compromise his position if we offer him a valid compromise.

Let me ask you this. If Markakis and his agent say, "No way Nick is signing a deal that commits him to more than four years with the Orioles. Instead of a longer term deal, Nick will take his twenty million dollars or so in arbitration over the next three years, and then declare free agency after that. Nick will sign a four year deal this offseason, but after this offseason, Nick will just wait for free agency rather than sign any extension." Would you sign him for four years right now? Or would you risk not signing any deal at all and seeing him leave in three years?

I'd have to think about this and see where the team is with Roberts and other guys this offseason. However, I'd certainly consider trading him if extending him (which would certainly include a raise in the first 3 years of the deal) only gets me one more year. One more year doesn't do much for me.

[Mackus]

Yea you are right...Markakis is lying...He is saying PUBLICLY that he wants to re-sign here(several times) and has engaged in negotiations...He also married this offseason and bought a house in the area.

But yea, none of that is a sign he wants to extend here.

No, I like the theory that Nick is a liar and doesn't want to be here...That makes much more sense.

Your complete lack of nuance and subtlety is staggering.

Shades of gray. Not everything is a black and white situation. Nick can say the right PC message publicly, feel slightly differently personally, and not be a liar. And me saying "I'm not sure he wants to extend" doesn't mean that he won't extend, just that I don't really think he's anxious to extend here. I think he'd like the comfort of a long term deal, but isn't completely eager to be here for a long time. So if a contract is exactly what he's looking for, he'd probably do it, but he's not gonna do us any favors to stick around for a while for a deal that isn't exactly what he wants.