POLL: Who Do You Want As Your Closer in 2009?

[The Wedge]

Oh, okay I get it. Since the Orioles are in such overall sorry shape, you could care less who closes. I can understand that viewpoint now that you explained it. I thought before you were just intentionally being non-committal.

Yes, exactly so.

Of course I know. I am just expressing my opinion. I think Jim Johnson would make a much, much better closer than Ray. Ray reminds me a bit too much of Jorge Julio.

I understand the Ray love. His stuff is electric, and he's young with upside. I can also see the Julio concerns. But we do agree that JJ is probably the best overall choice, but I really don't care who closes while we're still hemorrhaging at positions. Shore up the back end of the bullpen after we solve the mystery of guys who will punch in the starting line up for at least 150 games a season.

[blueberryale77]

Neither one is a true closer at the Major League level, but Ray has given me fewer heart attacks and has more chance of improving. That and I'm so sick of hearing about Sherrill being an "All-Star" based on save total alone when the Orioles had 4-5 other players (Roberts, Markakis, Huff, possibly Guthrie and/or Johnson) who were more deserving. If the players hadn't voted him onto the All-Star team, he might have remained a serviceable pitcher throughout the second half and not contributed so greatly to our complete pitching meltdown last year.

[Crazysilver03]

If Ray is so much better than Sherrill why hasn't he even sniffed an all-star team? Afterall, every team has to have an -allstar!:rolleyestf:

Chris Ray Stats vs. George Sherrill Stats

Ray was brought up mid 2005 and was excellent at first and then only decent down the stretch because Mazzili relied on him too much. In 2006, Ray posted a 1.09 WHIP. In 2007, he was injured and mostly ineffective, of course the time during which you generalize about his entire career. Mind you, 2006 was his first full year in the majors and as a closer.

Sherrill's first full year in 2006 wasnt so hot with a 1.43 WHIP, and then in 2007 he was solid with a 0.99 WHIP, but as a LOOGY. As the closer last year, he had a 1.50 WHIP, no where near as good as Ray's first year as the closer.

Regarding the All-Star Argument, in 2006, the Orioles only had one rep, and it was Miguel Tejada. The relievers on that team included Jenks, Paplebon, Rivera, and Ryan. Neither Ray nor Sherrill are close to their leagues as relievers, though Ray has a better shot, especially because of his age.

In 2008, without a real star on the team, arguments can be made for Markakis but he wouldnt crack that OF, the Orioles sent Sherrill, who was looking decent in the first half of the year. Nathan, Soria, Paplebon, Rivera, and Rodriguez were some of the other relief pitchers on the team this year. There were more relief pitchers this year because there were fewer starting pitchers included in the mix. Because of the every team needs an All-Star policy, Sherrill was the easiest selection to make even though he wasnt the biggest star on the team.

[Old#5fan]

Chris Ray Stats vs. George Sherrill Stats

Ray was brought up mid 2005 and was excellent at first and then only decent down the stretch because Mazzili relied on him too much. In 2006, Ray posted a 1.09 WHIP. In 2007, he was injured and mostly ineffective, of course the time during which you generalize about his entire career. Mind you, 2006 was his first full year in the majors and as a closer.

Sherrill's first full year in 2006 wasnt so hot with a 1.43 WHIP, and then in 2007 he was solid with a 0.99 WHIP, but as a LOOGY. As the closer last year, he had a 1.50 WHIP, no where near as good as Ray's first year as the closer.

Regarding the All-Star Argument, in 2006, the Orioles only had one rep, and it was Miguel Tejada. The relievers on that team included Jenks, Paplebon, Rivera, and Ryan. Neither Ray nor Sherrill are close to their leagues as relievers, though Ray has a better shot, especially because of his age.

In 2008, without a real star on the team, arguments can be made for Markakis but he wouldnt crack that OF, the Orioles sent Sherrill, who was looking decent in the first half of the year. Nathan, Soria, Paplebon, Rivera, and Rodriguez were some of the other relief pitchers on the team this year. There were more relief pitchers this year because there were fewer starting pitchers included in the mix. Because of the every team needs an All-Star policy, Sherrill was the easiest selection to make even though he wasnt the biggest star on the team.

Okay, nice explanation. I give you that. However, instead of improving on his fairly impressive rookie season, Ray got worse. Now whether the injury had anything to do with it who knows. Ray himself said it didn't. I happen to think he benefitted by being new to the majors and hitters didn't know him yet in his rookie year. In his second season the hitters had enough data/film, etc to figure him out. I personally don't think he will ever amount to more than a mediocre closer at best.

[blueberryale77]

In 2008, without a real star on the team, arguments can be made for Markakis but he wouldnt crack that OF, the Orioles sent Sherrill, who was looking decent in the first half of the year. Nathan, Soria, Paplebon, Rivera, and Rodriguez were some of the other relief pitchers on the team this year. There were more relief pitchers this year because there were fewer starting pitchers included in the mix. Because of the every team needs an All-Star policy, Sherrill was the easiest selection to make even though he wasnt the biggest star on the team.

Sherrill was voted in by the players, probably due simply to his flashy save total (I believe he was leading the league at the time, but also leading the league in blown saves and had a high ERA for a closer... in other words, he'd gotten lucky in the opportunity department). If it had been up to the manager to choose an Oriole, he should have gone with Roberts who was leading the AL in both doubles and triples, Markakis or Huff who were on the leader board in multiple categories, or even Johnson who was pitching better than Sherrill albeit under less pressure or Guthrie who was singlehandedly holding together our miserable starting rotation. But since the players had already voted for Sherrill, there was no need for the manager to assess which Oriole was really most deserving.

[Sports Guy]

If he is still here, I want Sherrill to be the closer.

Ray is a better pitcher and I would prefer to see him in the tougher situations, in the 6th-8th innings.

Plus, the more saves Sherrill gets, the more his value builds and we can deal him.

[Crazysilver03]

Okay, nice explanation. I give you that. However, instead of improving on his fairly impressive rookie season, Ray got worse. Now whether the injury had anything to do with it who knows. Ray himself said it didn't. I happen to think he benefitted by being knew to the majors and hitters didn't know him yet. In his second season the hitters had enough data/film, etc to figure him out. I personally don't think he will ever amount to more than a mediocre closer at best.

This argument doesnt fly well.

When he was brought up in 2005, he made 41 appearances.

He faced:

Houston x1

Colorado x2

Toronto x5

Atlanta x1

Yankees x5

Cleveland x1

Red Sox x4

Seattle x3

Minnesota x1

Tampa Bay x5

White Sox x1

Angels x3

Texas x6

Oakland x2

In 2006, he made 63 appearances:

Tampa Bay x9

Yankees x6

Red Sox x7

Blue Jays x4

Overall 2005/2006:

TB: x13

NYY: 11

Red Sox: 11

Toronto: 9

He was not "new" to major leaguers in 2006.

BTW, in 2007, Ray gave up a game winner to the Yankees, in that same 3 game series, he saved the other 2 games giving up 1 hit over 2 innings pitched. The Red Sox were the only team he had troubles with in 2007, as he blew two saves and had one save in three games. Other than that, Ray wasnt overly horrible in 2007.

[Sports Guy]

Okay, nice explanation. I give you that. However, instead of improving on his fairly impressive rookie season, Ray got worse. Now whether the injury had anything to do with it who knows. Ray himself said it didn't. I happen to think he benefitted by being new to the majors and hitters didn't know him yet in his rookie year. In his second season the hitters had enough data/film, etc to figure him out. I personally don't think he will ever amount to more than a mediocre closer at best.

If you compare Ray's 2006 vs 2007 seasons, you see the following:

In 2007, he had a much higher K rate than he did in 2006.

His walk rate was slightly higher in 2007 vs 2006...The difference was ONE walk in terms of his rate.

In 2007, his HR rate was better vs 2006.

His K/BB ratio was better in 2007 as well.

He also was much more of a GB pitcher in 2007.

In his first season, 2005, Ray wasn't that good vs lefties and that is something he got better at...In 2006, he lowered his OPS against lefties into the 720s...He dropped that another 50 points in 2007.

So, really, his 2007 season was better than his 2006 season IMO...he just happened to get hurt, have less IP to skew his ERA and had a few terrible outings.

One thing Ray has shown that Sherrill hasn't is that Ray can go multiple innings, which of course is very important.

Now, Ray has to work on one major thing....Homers allowed...He has to lower that...It has been a problem in his career but despite that, he is usually pretty good.

Also, in some of his terrible 2007 outings, he was the victim of awful BP management that really hurt him....Perlozzo was as much a problem as Ray was.

[Crazysilver03]

No, I would prefer knowing The Wedge's preference between Sherrill, Ray or someone else. Even though you unfairly love to give me red pips repeatedly moreseo than anyone else on this entire board, at least you voted on the poll.

Just to clarify, I only give out negative rep when people's logic have flaws.

[blueberryale77]

If he is still here, I want Sherrill to be the closer.

Ray is a better pitcher and I would prefer to see him in the tougher situations, in the 6th-8th innings.

Plus, the more saves Sherrill gets, the more his value builds and we can deal him.

You do have a point here... but on the subject of trade value I still think (or at least hope for the sake of the game as a whole) that GMs are not as easily fooled by silly stats like saves as the press/casual fans/sometimes even the players.

[Sports Guy]

You do have a point here... but on the subject of trade value I still think (or at least hope for the sake of the game as a whole) that GMs are not as easily fooled by silly stats like saves as the press/casual fans/sometimes even the players.

Couldn't disagree more....See Ceda for Gregg.

Just need Sherrill to do it again to really impress upon them.

Remember, he basically didn't have any saves after the deadline last year...They didn't see how he could close for an entire season.

[The Rick]

If he is still here, I want Sherrill to be the closer.

Ray is a better pitcher and I would prefer to see him in the tougher situations, in the 6th-8th innings.

Plus, the more saves Sherrill gets, the more his value builds and we can deal him.

I agree with you, but it's not like we can count on that happening. Ugh.

[Old#5fan]

If you compare Ray's 2006 vs 2007 seasons, you see the following:

In 2007, he had a much higher K rate than he did in 2006.

His walk rate was slightly higher in 2007 vs 2006...The difference was ONE walk in terms of his rate.

In 2007, his HR rate was better vs 2006.

His K/BB ratio was better in 2007 as well.

He also was much more of a GB pitcher in 2007.

In his first season, 2005, Ray wasn't that good vs lefties and that is something he got better at...In 2006, he lowered his OPS against lefties into the 720s...He dropped that another 50 points in 2007.

So, really, his 2007 season was better than his 2006 season IMO...he just happened to get hurt, have less IP to skew his ERA and had a few terrible outings.

One thing Ray has shown that Sherrill hasn't is that Ray can go multiple innings, which of course is very important.

Now, Ray has to work on one major thing....Homers allowed...He has to lower that...It has been a problem in his career but despite that, he is usually pretty good.

Also, in some of his terrible 2007 outings, he was the victim of awful BP management that really hurt him....Perlozzo was as much a problem as Ray was.

How many top closers have the problem of giving up a lot of homers like Ray? I venture to say none or very few. Not only is that a problem, it is a fatal flaw. Refer to one Jorge Julio, who Ray seems to me to be almost a carbon copy. For that reason alone I would much prefer either Sherrill or Jim Johnson over Ray. So I must admit I am rather astonished that 2/3 of those voting on this poll prefer a closer who gives up such a high percentage of homers. I personally want no parts of a closer with that fatal problem.

[Sports Guy]

How many top closers have the problem of giving up a lot of homers like Ray? I venture to say none or very few. Not only is that a problem, it is a fatal flaw. Refer to one Jorge Julio, who Ray seems to me to be almost a carbon copy.

Your boy Sherrill has homer issues and is more of a fly ball pitcher than Ray.

Ray is a better pitcher than Julio. I am not going to bother showing this through stats or performance because it is wasted on you.

As far as other closers, i am not sure...Not going to take the time to look up the stats....However, Ray is very young and has plenty of time to improve on this and I for one am not going to obsess about it.

You have been shown time after time that Ray has better stats than Sherrill...he is far younger and he is cheaper.

None of that is going to matter to you because you choose to ignore facts but that's ok, everyone else understands the facts.

[Sports Guy]

Here are some closers from this past season:

Valverde: 10 homers allowed in 72 IP...He had 44 saves

Marmol: 10 homers allowed in 87 IP...Marmol isn't a closer but he is a great short reliever.

Percival: 9 homers in 45.2 IP

KRod's 2005 season, he gave up too many homers.

Hoffman has a relatively high career HR rate...some years worse than others.

Before BJ Ryan started to close for us, he had a few years where he gave up too many homers.

Just naming a few here.