Long piece on Peter Angelos’ history

[Moose Milligan]

Where's the Nashville rumor stem from?  I've not seen it mentioned other than some article that seemingly kicked this rumor off from some off-beat news source.  Even then, I remember it seemed like pure conjecture.  If anything, this seems like practically the only place that continues to give that rumor any kind of oxygen.

MLB doesn't want OPACY empty.  End of story. 

[spiritof66]

2 hours ago, NCRaven said:

The reasons given for denying the transfer are largely presumptions on your part.  As you point out, the Orioles losses over the past few years are part of a deliberate plan to be a winning team in the longer term.  It is a strategy that has been used both successfully and unsuccessfully by several other teams and other owners are not likely to hold it against the Orioles when they’ve done it themselves. 
I just think that you overstate the likelihood of MLB rejecting Mrs. Angelos or her sons as potential owners.

No, they're completely presumptions on my part. My point was that if the Commissioner (who has no vote, but probably can play a key role in the process if he wants to) and the owners want to be rid of the Angeloses because they despise Peter Angelos for his defiance of the current and previous Commissioners, and for his refusal to be a team player in a past labor dispute with the union, they have other plausible, better-sounding reasons they can cite for turning down a request for approval of a control transfer on Peter's death. Of course, they don't have to cite any reasons all -- just have a vote and let the chips fall where they may.

The real question is whether the owners (with whatever guidance the Commissioner chooses to provide) will approve that transfer if it's sought. I think they probably won't, but I have no more knowledge about that than you do, other than my having read some of the nasty correspondence from Manfred that was made publicly available in the MASN litigation and my having a pretty good understanding of the effect of the estate tax and inheritance tax burden that the Angeloses face. But you're right that it's just my assessment, or presumption, or whatever you want to call it.

[Frobby]

5 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

Where's the Nashville rumor stem from?  I've not seen it mentioned other than some article that seemingly kicked this rumor off from some off-beat news source.  Even then, I remember it seemed like pure conjecture.  If anything, this seems like practically the only place that continues to give that rumor any kind of oxygen.

MLB doesn't want OPACY empty.  End of story. 

So far as I know, it’s nothing but speculation based on the fact that John Angelos bought a house in Nashville so that his wife can pursue her country music career.    He’s moved to Nashville part time, so obviously he wants to move the team there, right?  

[Can_of_corn]

15 minutes ago, Frobby said:

So far as I know, it’s nothing but speculation based on the fact that John Angelos bought a house in Nashville so that his wife can pursue her country music career.    He’s moved to Nashville part time, so obviously he wants to move the team there, right?  

If you are going to speculate than I could see how moving a professional baseball team to Nashville might very well ingrate a person to influential residents of the city that could be helpful in such an endeavor.

[fansince1988]

6 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

Where's the Nashville rumor stem from?  I've not seen it mentioned other than some article that seemingly kicked this rumor off from some off-beat news source.  Even then, I remember it seemed like pure conjecture.  If anything, this seems like practically the only place that continues to give that rumor any kind of oxygen.

MLB doesn't want OPACY empty.  End of story. 

It's been mostly empty since 2017. Sorry I couldn't resist. Additionally, I don't see the Atlanta Baseball Club allowing a team in Nashville unless they get to form their own cable network and control that clubs TV broadcasts. 

[DrungoHazewood]

17 hours ago, fansince1988 said:

It's been mostly empty since 2017. Sorry I couldn't resist. Additionally, I don't see the Atlanta Baseball Club allowing a team in Nashville unless they get to form their own cable network and control that clubs TV broadcasts. 

Nashville is currently blacked out from receiving both the Braves and the Reds on MLB.com.  I'm surprised they can get the Cardinals, as St. Louis is only a few miles further than Cincy.

Anyway, the Reds and Braves might both ask for compensation for stealing their territory.

[NCRaven]

20 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Anyway, the Reds and Braves might both ask for compensation for stealing their territory.

Working out great for the Orioles.

[Porky]

On 1/6/2022 at 11:21 AM, Moose Milligan said:

Where's the Nashville rumor stem from?  I've not seen it mentioned other than some article that seemingly kicked this rumor off from some off-beat news source.  Even then, I remember it seemed like pure conjecture.  If anything, this seems like practically the only place that continues to give that rumor any kind of oxygen.

MLB doesn't want OPACY empty.  End of story. 

I agree with you - I don't think the O's relocating is impossible, but I think it is unlikely. Baltimore City continues to lose population and yes, has its problems. And the Baltimore Metro area isn't growing as quickly as many places in the country - but it's still the 20th largest metropolitan area in the country and it's a pretty wealthy one. Camden Yards is relatively old now, but it seems primed for Fenway/Wrigley legendary status and I can't see any new owner chomping at the bit to build some new palace.

Besides that, like you mentioned, I don't think MLB itself really wants the O's to move. MLB uses Nashville, Portland, and Vegas all the time as a bargaining chip to pressure local governments into getting new stadiums built. I don't think they want to lose those chips before they settle the stadium situations in Oakland and Tampa.

MLB also is inevitably going to want to expand in the near future. The Kraken just paid a $650 million expansion fee to join the NHL. I'd guess the fee would be even bigger for MLB. 

Also, if the Angelos sons decide to sell, they seem like they are community-conscious enough to try and sell to a buyer who would keep them in Baltimore. But, who knows.

[wildcard]

On 1/6/2022 at 1:36 PM, spiritof66 said:

 my having a pretty good understanding of the effect of the estate tax and inheritance tax burden that the Angeloses face. 

Why do you think there is an issue with estate and inheritance taxes when transfering from a husband to a wife?  What knowledge do you have of a trust that may be in place for transfer of control of the team like the Tigers did?

[spiritof66]

Here's a February 1995 article about Peter Angelos by Pat Jordan (best known to me as the author of a really good book, A False Spring). The article appeared in the midst of an owner-players' union impasse that led to a shortened season and just a couple of years after Angelos bought the Orioles. 

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1995-02-26-tm-36192-story.html

The article describes the mutual enmity was between Angelos and then-Commissioner Bud Selig (and some other then-owners, about one of whom Angelos is quoted as saying "I'm gonna punch him out"). Angelos is quoted a calling Selig's efforts to resolve baseball’s labor problems as "[a]mateurish, ineffective and doomed to failure." This is the period when Angelos first was branded as disloyal to MLB and not a team player, both for disagreeing about MLB's position and for talking to the media about it. He continued to play that role under Selig's tenure and into Rob Manfred. Manfred had a very close relationship with Selig. He was MLB's outside labor counsel in 1995, and Selig hired him to work at MLB in 1998. Their relationship over the next 25 years has been described as that of deputy, consigliere, mentor, and right-hand man. Manfred succeeded Selig in 2015, early in the MASN litigation with its extensive name-calling on both sides, involving both Selig and Manfred personally.

While I know that virtually everyone who's posted on the subject disagrees with me, I believe the poisonous relationships whose beginnings are described in this article make it unlikely that the owners would vote to approve the passage of control of the Orioles to another Angelos or Angeloses upon Peter's death. (I'll leave aside the economic weakness of continued Angelos ownership.) I guess others have a different assessment of Manfred's vindictiveness and ability to bear and act on a personal grudge, his influence over the owners in such a vote, and/or the ability of the Angeloses or their representatives to convince the owners that the proposed new owners can be trusted to interact with MLB and operate the team totally differently from Peter Angelos -- in effect, to repudiate their father's or spouse's decades of ownership. 

[Frobby]

1 hour ago, spiritof66 said:

Here's a February 1995 article about Peter Angelos by Pat Jordan (best known to me as the author of a really good book, A False Spring). The article appeared in the midst of an owner-players' union impasse that led to a shortened season and just a couple of years after Angelos bought the Orioles. 

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1995-02-26-tm-36192-story.html

The article describes the mutual enmity was between Angelos and then-Commissioner Bud Selig (and some other then-owners, about one of whom Angelos is quoted as saying "I'm gonna punch him out"). Angelos is quoted a calling Selig's efforts to resolve baseball’s labor problems as "[a]mateurish, ineffective and doomed to failure." This is the period when Angelos first was branded as disloyal to MLB and not a team player, both for disagreeing about MLB's position and for talking to the media about it. He continued to play that role under Selig's tenure and into Rob Manfred. Manfred had a very close relationship with Selig. He was MLB's outside labor counsel in 1995, and Selig hired him to work at MLB in 1998. Their relationship over the next 25 years has been described as that of deputy, consigliere, mentor, and right-hand man. Manfred succeeded Selig in 2015, early in the MASN litigation with its extensive name-calling on both sides, involving both Selig and Manfred personally.

While I know that virtually everyone who's posted on the subject disagrees with me, I believe the poisonous relationships whose beginnings are described in this article make it unlikely that the owners would vote to approve the passage of control of the Orioles to another Angelos or Angeloses upon Peter's death. (I'll leave aside the economic weakness of continued Angelos ownership.) I guess others have a different assessment of Manfred's vindictiveness and ability to bear and act on a personal grudge, his influence over the owners in such a vote, and/or the ability of the Angeloses or their representatives to convince the owners that the proposed new owners can be trusted to interact with MLB and operate the team totally differently from Peter Angelos -- in effect, to repudiate their father's or spouse's decades of ownership. 

The owners already approved having John Angelos designated as the “control person” about 14 months ago, so what is left to approve?

https://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/orioles/bs-sp-orioles-angelos-named-control-person-20201103-hc24jajfrrcxvefk2jqdopfeoi-story.html?outputType=amp

[MDtransplant757]

On 1/6/2022 at 11:21 AM, Moose Milligan said:

Where's the Nashville rumor stem from?  I've not seen it mentioned other than some article that seemingly kicked this rumor off from some off-beat news source.  Even then, I remember it seemed like pure conjecture.  If anything, this seems like practically the only place that continues to give that rumor any kind of oxygen.

MLB doesn't want OPACY empty.  End of story. 

Stems from John Angelos owing a home there and the law firm being there too. Oddly enough, it's been reported that John is also technically a resident of Indiana due to cheaper taxes and funding a lot of political candidates there.

[Moose Milligan]

17 hours ago, MDtransplant757 said:

Stems from John Angelos owing a home there and the law firm being there too. Oddly enough, it's been reported that John is also technically a resident of Indiana due to cheaper taxes and funding a lot of political candidates there.

So no one's ****ting their pants about them moving to Indiana but everyone's so afraid of Nashville?

Angelos owns a home there and the law firm being there doesn't automatically mean he wants to uproot a baseball franchise and move it there.

These people with a ton of money operate on a different level than the rest of us.  And not that I can ever remember it being reported that John Angelos being at an Orioles game, but if he wanted to fly from Nashville to Baltimore on a whim to see the team lose, he could make that happen and it wouldn't be a pain in the ass to do so.

 

[spiritof66]

17 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

So no one's ****ting their pants about them moving to Indiana but everyone's so afraid of Nashville?

Angelos owns a home there and the law firm being there doesn't automatically mean he wants to uproot a baseball franchise and move it there.

These people with a ton of money operate on a different level than the rest of us.  And not that I can ever remember it being reported that John Angelos being at an Orioles game, but if he wanted to fly from Nashville to Baltimore on a whim to see the team lose, he could make that happen and it wouldn't be a pain in the ass to do so.

 

Not a big deal, but what law firm has an office in Nashville? I don't see that on the website of either Peter Angeles Law or John's separate firm, Angelos Legal Group.

https://www.angeloslaw.com/contact/

https://angeloslegalgroup.com/get-in-touch/

If John bought four season tickets he would pump up the team's attendance numbers -- he wouldn't have to show up.  

[Frobby]

21 hours ago, MDtransplant757 said:

Stems from John Angelos owing a home there and the law firm being there too. Oddly enough, it's been reported that John is also technically a resident of Indiana due to cheaper taxes and funding a lot of political candidates there.

The law firm is not in Nashville.   They have two offices, in Baltimore and Harrisburg PA.  https://www.angeloslaw.com/about-us/