O's Ink Izturis

[NCRaven]

Well until the Tigers signed him for a million bucks, there was Adam Everett.

Now don't get me wrong, he'd get the O's no closer to a longterm solution than Izturis does, but at least he'd be cheaper and there wouldn't be any ambiguity about the placeholder status.

Dave, I understand the point that the Orioles should be looking long-term first in filling their roster needs. But, I don't think a two year vs. one year contract makes Izturis' status amiguous. I've seen no indication that anyone, including MacPhail considers him the long-term solution at SS. And, I don't think the contract means that AM didn't and won't continue to look for that solution. We know, for example, that he expressed a strong interest in Alcedes Escobar during trade talks with Milwaukee during this past season. But they made it plain that Escobar wasn't going anywhere, particularly after they traded LaPorte to the Indians. If they were looking at a long-term solution then, I doubt that they haven't talked with other GMs about young SS's since the season ended and even during these meetings. But, you can't wait too long and miss out on other options, especially after the debacle that we had at short last season.

I believe that Izturus presents a relatively inexpensive and adequate solution to our hole at short while we continue to persue a long-term option. And, I'm not discounting the possibility that Greg Miclat could already be that option - but it's about 9 months too early to have a more clear idea about that. I would be disappointed, and surprised, to find that with the signing of Izturus, MacPhail declared "problem solved" and ignored SS for the next 2 years. But, the signing buys him time to make the right decision without time pressure due to the upcoming season.

[Lucky Jim]

Dave, I understand the point that the Orioles should be looking long-term first in filling their roster needs. But, I don't think a two year vs. one year contract makes Izturis' status amiguous. I've seen no indication that anyone, including MacPhail considers him the long-term solution at SS. And, I don't think the contract means that AM didn't and won't continue to look for that solution. We know, for example, that he expressed a strong interest in Alcedes Escobar during trade talks with Milwaukee during this past season. But they made it plain that Escobar wasn't going anywhere, particularly after they traded LaPorte to the Indians. If they were looking at a long-term solution then, I doubt that they haven't talked with other GMs about young SS's since the season ended and even during these meetings. But, you can't wait too long and miss out on other options, especially the debacle that we had at short last season.

I believe that Izturus presents a relatively inexpensive and adequate solution to our hole at short while we continue to persue a long-term option. And, I'm not discounting the possibility that Greg Miclat could already be that option - but it's about 9 months too early to have a more clear idea about that. I would be disappointed, and surprised, to find that with the signing of Izturus, MacPhail declared "problem solved" and ignored SS for the next 2 years.

I understand the point. But it's also wrong because it reduces Baltimore's leverage and increases their risk.

[davearm]

Dave, I understand the point that the Orioles should be looking long-term first in filling their roster needs. But, I don't think a two year vs. one year contract makes Izturis' status amiguous. I've seen no indication that anyone, including MacPhail considers him the long-term solution at SS. And, I don't think the contract means that AM didn't and won't continue to look for that solution. We know, for example, that he expressed a strong interest in Alcedes Escobar during trade talks with Milwaukee during this past season. But they made it plain that Escobar wasn't going anywhere, particularly after they traded LaPorte to the Indians. If they were looking at a long-term solution then, I doubt that they haven't talked with other GMs about young SS's since the season ended and even during these meetings. But, you can't wait too long and miss out on other options, especially after the debacle that we had at short last season.

I believe that Izturus presents a relatively inexpensive and adequate solution to our hole at short while we continue to persue a long-term option. And, I'm not discounting the possibility that Greg Miclat could already be that option - but it's about 9 months too early to have a more clear idea about that. I would be disappointed, and surprised, to find that with the signing of Izturus, MacPhail declared "problem solved" and ignored SS for the next 2 years. But, the signing buys him time to make the right decision without time pressure due to the upcoming season.

I wouldn't say I expect that MacPhail will ignore SS for the next two years. I just think it becomes a much lower priority. (How could it not?)

The bottom line here is, finding a longterm SS should remain an urgent priority IMO, and now I doubt it will be.

And realistically, it can't be an urgent priority: they're not going to bench Izturis right out of the gate, so why even be shopping for a ML-ready Cedeno/Hu/Lillibridge/Donald type? Who's the odd man out if that guy falls in your lap? If you think they'd just kick Izturis to the curb without even giving him the inside track on the job then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

As I see it, there are three potential outcomes here:

1) Izturis lights the world on fire, and this becomes a terrific signing;

2) Izturis is who we think he is, and the O's tread water at the SS position for up to two years;

3) Izturis flops, and before the season is out the O's are right back to where they were a week ago.

Only #1 can be seen as making progress. And as I outlined, the sort of acquisition that could be viewed as progressive probably just got back-burnered.

[Lucky Jim]

I wouldn't say I expect that MacPhail will ignore SS for the next two years. I just think it becomes a much lower priority. (How could it not?)

The bottom line here is, finding a longterm SS should remain an urgent priority IMO, and now I doubt it will be.

And realistically, it can't be an urgent priority: they're not going to bench Izturis right out of the gate, so why even be shopping for a ML-ready Cedeno/Hu/Lillibridge/Donald type? Who's the odd man out if that guy falls in your lap? If you think they'd just kick Izturis to the curb without even giving him the inside track on the job then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

As I see it, there are three potential outcomes here:

1) Izturis lights the world on fire, and this becomes a terrific signing;

2) Izturis is who we think he is, and the O's tread water at the SS position for up to two years;

3) Izturis flops, and before the season is out the O's are right back to where they were a week ago.

Only #1 can be seen as making progress. And as I outlined, the sort of acquisition that could be viewed as progressive probably just got back-burnered.

These are your ML-ready options? Hu - of the 29 MLB OPS+/.708 OPS in the PCL, Donald who won't likely stay at SS, Lillibridge who put up a .638 OPS at AAA at 24 and Cedeno, who couldn't beat out...Ryan Theriot?

Again:

1. Urgency is NOT a good negotiating position.

2. The guys who are listed as alternatives to Izturis are not, in fact, alternatives. They may be ready at some point in the near future, but we'd still need an OD SS.

This is why no one would be kicked to the curb: it would be a year - likely - before any long-term solution was ready to be an everyday starter. NONE of the guys you've listed is that answer.

The fact that you can't see the obvious option: that we sign Izturis and then look to make deals with some of our redundancies (or higher value players) while we trot Izturis out to SS means you're being willfully blind.

I mean, you can't even envision that the O's plan on moving pieces for a long-term SS solution as the offseason goes on? It's really either/or? It's beyond your (apparently emaciated) powers of conceptualization?

[davearm]

I understand the point. But it's also wrong because it reduces Baltimore's leverage and increases their risk.

I don't think the sort of leverage you're implying is necessarily a good thing.

"We don't need to overpay for (fill in the blank possible longterm SS), we've got Izturis now."

Given that option set, it'd quite possibly be better to overpay.

Not sure what sort of risk you're envisioning.

[davearm]

These are your ML-ready options? Hu - of the 29 MLB OPS+/.708 OPS in the PCL, Donald who won't likely stay at SS, Lillibridge who put up a .638 OPS at AAA at 24 and Cedeno, who couldn't beat out...Ryan Theriot?

Again:

1. Urgency is NOT a good negotiating position.

2. The guys who are listed as alternatives to Izturis are not, in fact, alternatives. They may be ready at some point in the near future, but we'd still need an OD SS.

This is why no one would be kicked to the curb: it would be a year - likely - before any long-term solution was ready to be an everyday starter. NONE of the guys you've listed is that answer.

The fact that you can't see the obvious option: that we sign Izturis and then look to make deals with some of our redundancies (or higher value players) while we trot Izturis out to SS means you're being willfully blind.

I mean, you can't even envision that the O's plan on moving pieces for a long-term SS solution as the offseason goes on? It's really either/or? It's beyond your (apparently emaciated) powers of conceptualization?

The insults aren't doing anything to further the disussion.

If you'd like to take a respectful tone here then I'd be happy to continue.

[Lucky Jim]

The insults aren't doing anything to further the disussion.

If you'd like to take a respectful tone here then I'd be happy to continue.

Honestly, I couldn't care less at this point. You've had that strategy explained to you repeatedly, and yet you still refuse to concede that it's even an option.

In fact, I beseech you not to respond, because I've really got to wash my hands of this conversation and, well, I just can't can quit you. You've got just that much negative charisma.

[Tx Oriole]

I beleive it was a good signing. He is better than what the team has had at SS. I beleive the O's have done pretty well so far. Ramon is gone now. Tex is being sought after. 7 years at 150 milion. May not get it done but it is a good offer. IMO

[Migrant Redbird]

In fact, I beseech you not to respond, because I've really got to wash my hands of this conversation and, well, I just can't can quit you. You've got just that much negative charisma.

Don't sweat it! If Izturis is a flop, it won't be the first or last bad signing by the O's.

Personally, if Izturis is penciled into the lineup every day and avoids injury, I think that you'll get something pretty close to his career .260/.299/.331/.630 stats plus or minus 10-20 percent, plus pretty good defense. He's not Ozzie or Vizquel, but he's probably as good of a shortstop as the O's have had since Belanger, on a par with Bordick. A little less power than Bordick and not as many walks, but also fewer strikeouts and a few more stolen bases.

If Trembley doesn't play Izturis nearly every day or starts using him as a utility player, shuffling him from one position to another, I think that both his hitting and his defense are likely to suffer.

Felipe Lopez will probably put up as good or better offensive numbers as Izturis, but the glove won't be nearly as good. I'd almost be willing to bet that Izturis will outhit Lopez, but I think the odds probably do favor Felipe slightly.

[Frobby]

Personally, if Izturis is penciled into the lineup every day and avoids injury, I think that you'll get something pretty close to his career .260/.299/.331/.630 stats plus or minus 10-20 percent, plus pretty good defense. He's not Ozzie or Vizquel, but he's probably as good of a shortstop as the O's have had since Belanger, on a par with Bordick. A little less power than Bordick and not as many walks, but also fewer strikeouts and a few more stolen bases.

Good enough for me, for now. However, don't sell short (unintended pun) Cal's defense when he was young and in his prime. He was probably as good as Bordick in his day, maybe even a little better.